2X eCommerce Podcast

Nadia: But if we're talking about
this user acquisition or performance

campaign, sales campaigns, our
job is to bring sales ASAP.

We have a very strict deadline.

Usually it differs from one month to
three months that we have to get enough

sales and to drive enough interested
users to the website to make an order

mhm.

Nadia: if the influencer
drives and creates a lot of.

Posts for the same brand in terms
of six months or three months,

then we're not talking about the
views guarantee, but we're actually

looking at a nice influencer with
loyal audience that creates good

content that actually brings users.

And it makes sense for the brands to
be rehiring the influencer for the

promotion of the product because.

The ad works.

Mhm.

Nadia: Obviously the number one thing
would be that the influencer must post

some content before posting our stories
about the brand, about the product

to heat up the algorithm to actually
bring the audience to the influencer.

And then once the influencer
will be posting out our stories

mhm.

Kunle: So on today's episode of
the two X e commerce podcast, we

dive into the secrets of leveraging
influencers for powerful brand awareness

and performance driven campaigns.

It's a great episode.

You don't want to miss it to stay tuned.

This is the 2x e commerce
podcast hosted by Kunle Campbell.

Kunle: Hey, Nadia, welcome
to the 2X eCommerce podcast.

Nadia: Hi, thank you for having me.

Really glad to be a part of it.

Kunle: Amazing.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Influencer marketing.

I've been involved in influencer marketing
largely performance very recently.

And I know it is a very complex
space can be challenging.

And that's one of the reasons I was
really super excited to, to speak

to you, today, other than what you
guys are doing at Famesters, I

want to know who you are, Nadia.

Do you want to give us your background
and link it to why you are into

influencer marketing in the first place?

Nadia: Sure, no problem.

I would say that I started off
in influencer marketing with

Famesters almost two years ago.

I think not almost, actually five
years ago as an influencer marketing

manager with no experience whatsoever.

And I just worked my way into
the position I am in right now.

And why influencer marketing interested
me in the first place was because being

a teenager I spent a lot of time playing
video games and watching YouTube.

And I was always interested in how
you can make a business out of it.

Other than like being a, an influencer
and having all those brand deals.

So I was really interested in how
this really works behind the scenes.

When I was getting my business degree
it was actually the first time that I

actually heard of influencer marketing
being an actual real job that you can

get, and this kind of sparked this
interest in me because it basically

combined the two things I liked the
most back then, which is Video games and

YouTube and YouTubers and influencers.

So I was really intrigued by how you can
combine all of that and not get a boring,

as I thought back then, job in an office
being like an economist or something,

but you could actually be combining the
two things that you love the most as a

teenager and building a career out of it.

So just as back then, I was really
enthusiastic about Influencers and

the world of influencer marketing
nothing changed, I would say, because

everything changed in influencer
marketing during this five years.

You have to always be up to date with
the current trends, something that

worked a couple of months ago is not
going to work just as good, just as

effortlessly As back then, so you have
to really study everything you have to

incorporate all of your knowledge about
pop culture, about basically everything.

You should always look
out for the new platforms.

So this is definitely not the
field and not the job where you

can get bored really easily.

That's probably one of the biggest
things I love about influencer marketing.

Kunle: Yeah, good stuff.

Good stuff.

I read economics and I didn't
want to ever be an economist.

I don't want it to, I don't want
any of my university mates to hear

this, but I just didn't want to
ever be an economist, a good one.

Okay.

So you're the head of agency at
FameStar, if I'm not mistaken.

And you started from the trenches,
you walked your way up over the years.

Tell us.

About FameStar, exactly
what the agency looks like.

And also your journey, I really like
to understand your journey from when

you started in the agency to where
you are now, being the head of agency.

Nadia: sure.

Famesters, what we do is we
provide Different brands of

different verticals with influencer
marketing campaigns from A to Z.

So our job is to understand what the
brand is interested in, what the goals

are what the requirements for the
whole campaign and the strategy are.

And what we do next is
we build this platform.

Whole strategy across different
social platforms showcasing everything

basically from starting with the
portrait of the influencers that

we're going to be onboarding to the
creative ideas, to the briefs, to all

of the materials and obviously the
performance prognosis or forecasts.

So our job is to, first of all, come up
with an idea and a strategy that is It's

backed up by some proof, some previous
cases or by some previous results and

build a real strategy out of it, showing
all the creative concepts, all the

ideas and basically everything that will
help us go from this thing being just a

strategy to the actual campaign that takes
place, that has all the publications,

all the contents published and so on.

Kunle: And to end

Nadia: Yeah,

Kunle: like the fact that
your sort of cross industry.

So you work in FinTech.

You spoke to video games,
the gaming industry is huge.

And then you work with consumer brands
which are obviously e commerce first.

What's what's the.

Before we jump into the e comm,
which is what this show is all about.

What's a nuance listeners should
be, be aware of in, in terms of the

difference in industry is influencer
markets and execute at the same way,

across some various industries or
does it, is there a nuance there?

Nadia: Obviously, there always are
going to be some differences across

the verticals across the all the types
of the products that we're working

with, because if we're talking about
Ecom, it always Includes the delivery

of the logistics of the product
being delivered to the influencer.

And this totally changes the whole scene
because if we're talking about just

launching a campaign for a digital product
being an app or a video game we don't

have to wait for anything to be delivered.

We don't have to control the process
of the product being showcased.

So we just create the creative
guidelines, the briefs, and the

influencers follow in their own way.

And we don't have to worry about
that, about like changing the

deadlines, the timeline of the whole
delivery and logistics process.

So if we're talking about e
com difference, that would

probably be the number one.

And there are actually
a lot of this moments.

So we could go on for hours,
talk about all the differences

between different verticals.

Kunle: No but that's like super important.

It's a very good point.

That delay of shipping the product to,
and then them confirming, sometimes it

gets lost in the post and then them also
getting acquainted with the product,

I've also found situations in which the,
you've booked a deal with the influencer.

The influencer has it on the influencer
says, look, I've, Sorry, I just need

some more time to to get used to it.

And sometimes they just, ghost
you and other times they're

super excited and it shows.

Okay.

So let's jump into e commerce,
e commerce as a vertical.

What key categories or when brands
come over to you what are their

objectives what should they try and
get out of, and what were they looking

to get out of influencer, marketing?

Nadia: I would say this question actually
correlates a lot with the types of

the campaign requests that we get from
brands, I would say that the number one

thing, the most popular thing among e com
brands is the brand awareness campaigns.

If we're talking about bigger.

These are the types of campaigns when we
on board, a lot of influencers will build

the strategy across different platforms.

Sometimes we even incorporate
different regions in this campaign.

So the target is Is broader because
we don't have to target some specific

niches of people of ions or of regions
But we can actually be very creative

and we can think of basically anything
that does provide this type of campaign

results the number Two would actually be
the I don't know, how should I put it?

Look like the general performance or
user acquisition campaigns where our main

goal is to drive sales to the product.

We calculate the costs.

And we actually start building
the strategy from there.

It differs a lot because if we're
talking about the brand awareness

campaigns in here, our goal is to
tell about the product, to shout

about the product, to make people.

Really know the product and
want to buy it over time.

But if we're talking about this user
acquisition or performance campaign, sales

campaigns, our job is to bring sales ASAP.

We have a very strict deadline.

Usually it differs from one month to three
months that we have to get enough sales

and to drive enough interested users to
the website to make an order, for example.

And obviously the third one, the
third type would be those kinds

of special campaigns with the
influencers when the brands don't.

They don't only try to integrate
their product into the influencers

content, but they try to make a
joint project with the influencer.

So these are like bigger collabs
between the product brand

and the influencers brand.

Where the brand would be interested in
using the influencers likeness, their

image, and to actually make something
together instead of just sending a

product for the influencers review.

Kunle: Interesting brand awareness,
more performance marketing, and then

a collaboration of sorts which really
amplifies a story and just shows, yeah,

social proof very interesting stuff.

Should we delve deep into brand awareness?

Why would brands want to.

Essentially use an influencer
for brand awareness campaign

and how do you measure success?

What are the KPIs for brand awareness?

Nadia: Obviously in brand awareness
campaigns, our job is to drive awareness.

So what we do is we create and set the
KPIs based on the number of views that we

have to gather from the target audience
on the ads that we do for this brand.

To measure success in these
types of campaigns is simple.

It's pretty easy, I would say,
because we have a specific

metric that we can count on.

Usually if not the number of views
the CPM can also be one of the biggest

KPIs in brand awareness campaigns.

That is to say, when we agree
on the specific CPM for the

whole budget of the campaign.

We named the region, we named the
requirements for the influencers, what

kind of influencers this should be, and
our job is to fulfill the specific actual

CPM to make eCPM estimated CPM and the
actual CPM after the campaign equal.

Measuring and measuring success and
actually setting those KPIs in brand

awareness campaigns is pretty easy.

But answering your question
about why brands should be paying

attention to influencers when they're
interested in this brand campaigns.

This was actually a very popular
question about five years back,

I would say, when no one really
heard about influencer marketing.

And we actually had to visit different
events and scout for the clients who would

be interested in influencer campaigns
because no one really understood what

influencer marketing is and how you can
leverage it for meeting your business

goals, for driving sales, for actually
making some kind of profit out of it.

Thankfully over the past, I don't know,
I would say three years, the situation

changed and it's not us who are scouting
the clients, but it's vice versa

because everyone knows about influencer
marketing and everyone's, everyone wants

a piece of it in their brand strategy.

So I would say that the first thing
that the first biggest advantage that

influence marketing has in terms of
like this brand awareness campaigns

is the audience loyalty, because.

Influencers do have this strong, loyal
relationships with their followers.

Their followers trust their opinions.

They are interested in the content
that the influencer is creating.

They will be paying attention.

They will be engaging with the
content that the influencer provides.

This trust between the influencer
and their audience, is key.

Usually transfers to the brand
itself, because if the followers

trust that the influ trust the
influencer, they will always also

trust that the influencer won't be
recommending some shitty brands to them.

This kind of loyal relationship
is pretty important.

What actually drives, I would say
that the most of success and influence

marketing in brand campaigns, especially

Kunle: Okay, that makes sense.

And then, you, yourselves as an
agency if I was a, a manager, or

a director of marketing director
at a consumer brand reached out

to you, say we're doing beauty.

And I reached out to you for brand
campaign, how does the selection of

influencers, the types of influencers
differ from, if I was looking for a

performance, driven campaign objective
who would you, what kind of influencers

would you be on the lookout for for
brand, for a brand driven, campaign.

Nadia: sure.

First of all, if we're talking
about brand campaigns, the brand

awareness campaigns usually dwell
on bigger budgets and on bigger

numbers of views that we have to get.

Performance campaigns are mainly
based on smaller influencers.

There will be like a big number.

of smaller influencers because they have
this most loyal and trustworthy connection

between them and their audience,
because they're not celebrities yet.

They're just people who create content
and this content interests other people.

Their relationship is more intimate,
I would say in terms of, In this

kind of like connection between
an influencer and their audience.

But if we're talking about brand
campaigns, usually we have to

incorporate some bigger influencers,
some big names that do actually

give this brand awareness.

So for example, if you see a really
big influencer who is an expert in this

niche, in this specific vertical, for
example talk about the product, then

you automatically have a bit more trust.

To the product itself, because you
heard about it from from an expert who

is quite well known, you do you have
some level of trust to this person?

So you have to basically look out for
the expert niche influencers who are

also pretty big in their following and
pretty big in the active users who are

watching and engaging with their content.

And if we're like building the
strategy itself, then I would say

in brand awareness campaigns, we try
to list all of the use cases that we

can see for the specific products.

For example, if you have a specific
beauty product I don't know.

It's targeted for women
from 30 to 40 years old.

And our first step is to really get to
know the product if we can to test it

out to then list all of the use cases we
can think of for this specific product.

And then what we do is we match this to
the influencers who create similar type

of content and are still rather big.

Because in performance based campaigns,
what we have to do, we, of course, also

analyze the use cases and we try to
match them with the influencers that we

are going to be offering to the client.

But it's a bit different in terms of.

The size of the influencers, the
niche content that they create,

and the content pieces themselves.

Kunle: Which, which brings me to
my next question, which is how do

you, I know there's a categorization
of influencers out there.

And I just wondering if you use
the same nano micro macro mega and

celebrity sort of scale in, in, in
your agency how do you categorize

agencies sorry influencers by size?

Nadia: I'm gonna be honest with
you, I don't really like this

system of micro, nano, etc.

Because usually all those systems
are based on the number of followers.

That is not something that we're
interested in our agency and in the

campaigns that we run because we
should never care and the brands

should never care about the number
of the followers the influencer has.

What we should be paying attention to
is the average number of views that

their videos or their posts get, because
this number is 100 percent going to

be lower than the number of followers.

Of course, with some exceptions, but
generally the influencers have more

followers than they have the average
video views on each piece of content.

So we're only interested in the average
videos, number video views number.

So this is going to be the only segment
of the audience that is really active

enough to actually watch the content
and not just be, I don't know, there's

ghosts that nobody sees except for
the numbers on the followers button.

What,

Kunle: So what, when you say the
average video views, you were speaking

specifically to IG reels and take talks,

Nadia: YouTube as well.

Kunle: On YouTube.

Oh yeah, sure.

I forgot.

I always forget YouTube.

You're right.

Nadia: Don't it's a
really great platform for,

Kunle: It's, would you say
YouTube is great for performance?

Where is, so if you were to run a
performance campaign what's your ideal,

what's the first platform you'd say,
okay, this is going to drive questions,

it's going to drive user acquisition.

Nadia: Actually, I would say that the
number one platform for e commerce brands

would be The Instagram and Instagram
stories specifically because you can

incorporate the link, you can use the
link, the users can click it and you

can basically track all the the whole
journey of the users that we bring.

YouTube YouTube incorporates
a lot of organic traffic.

Because when you're watching a YouTube
video, even if the influencer has put

the tracking link into the description
box probably you're not going to go

click that link, because once you're
watching the video and when you're

hearing about the product from the
influencer, if you're interested, you're

probably going to go grab your phone
and search for the product yourself.

So this is like the biggest problem
with performance campaigns on YouTube,

because the share of organic traffic
is usually almost equal to the share of

the traffic that goes through the link.

So it.

can be really tricky To measure
all of the traffic that was

brought through this campaign.

So with Instagram It's much easier because
people don't have to close the tab.

They don't have to close the
story to go search for the product

themselves because you can just
Click the link and you go there.

So there's basically no point in that.

Kunle: Yeah, you're absolutely right.

So the, most of the performance
Instagram performance marketing

campaigns we've been involved in have
been in, in the channel you said,

which is IG stories and it's clickable.

That's the nice thing that feedback
loop is very short, what are your

thoughts on tick tock and, TikTok
shop and performance from TikTok.

How would you, given the fact that
TikTok is focusing a lot on TikTok

shop as a brand, brand owners listening
to this podcast, how would you advice

that they view approaching TikTok
from a performance perspective?

Nadia: TikTok is actually a
great tool to be promoting

and selling your product with.

The number one step I would say
is to consider not only targeted

ads on TikTok, but also spark ads.

What we like to do when we have
this performance campaigns on TikTok

is obviously, first of all, we
buy the ads from the influencers.

And once the influencers do post their
content, if you're obviously have

approved the content, if the content
is good enough for it to be promoted

again, what we do is we use spark ads
to use this piece of content that the

influencer actually posted and we keep
promoting it to the other audience.

So in here, the difference is that
we're not promoting the creative

from the brand's account, but
we're actually promoting the post.

That the influencer made.

So the influencer posted this video
review of a product and then using

spark ads the tick tock official tool,
we can promote the video itself and add

like clickable link into this creative.

So we're actually going
to be promoting the.

content posted by the influencer, but
it will have the button with the link.

And we will be able to target the
audience that we're interested

in like demographically.

Kunle: Okay, so just so that I got get
you right you spark ads is a platform

within Tiktok or to the platform that
tiktok offers for you to essentially buy

content from its creators So what you're
saying is as a brand owner you go to spark

ad sets up your account you select the
influencers you send them your products.

Nadia: No, not really.

There is a tick tock marketplace
influencer marketplace.

I should say but tick tock
spark ads is a bit different.

So spark ads is actually a tool that
you can use if you have a business

cabinet in on tick tock, if you
have a tick tock business account.

So it is a tool that helps you use.

The content that influencers have
already posted for you, for your brand.

And you can get this ID number of
each of the videos that they posted.

And you can later use this video that
is actually posted on TikTok already.

You can use it as a creative and you
can drive new users using this specific

piece of content, which also will be
branded not only From like your account,

your official product or brand account.

But with the influencer as well.

Kunle: Okay.

So you go to the creator marketplace
you buy you essentially get content

and then you could re advertise, you
could promote that content from the

influencers handle with spark ads.

Nadia: yeah, because the biggest problem
with TikTok if we're talking about the

like performance campaigns is that you
can actually place the link for it to

be clickable and you well, obviously
you can put the link into the bio of the

influencers profile, but the influencers
tend to Ask for an additional payment

for that And it is not that effective
to be spending money on it So you will

eventually be still losing a lot of users
like potential buyers who will just be

too lazy to Click on the profile to click
on the link tree to find a specific link.

So spark ads actually helps us solve
this problem of not having clickable

links and having to calculate organic
traffic and actually losing the traffic.

So first we post the videos.

This could be the videos
from not that big creators.

You don't have to spend
a lot of money on it.

You just have to buy several pieces
of content from even smaller creators

who do produce good good contents
visually, and then once they posted

it, you can actually ask for this.

So you can use video ID codes and
use spark ads on those publications.

Kunle: Okay.

Okay.

Makes sense.

Because my, this brought me to, this
is my next question, which is as a,

as an influencer, a marketer, what,
what criteria what should you be on

the lookout for when you are looking
to buy, content from a creator?

Nadia: Obviously, first of all,
you should actually be looking

about the audience alignment and
content alignment with your product.

Whether this specific
influencer is a match for you.

Whether it makes sense to be promoting
your product with this influencer.

Because if you're I don't know, if
you're a sneaker shop, and you're, main

target is to sell sneakers, you wouldn't
be onboarding a beauty influencer, for

example, or a cosplay influencer because
there is obviously, there is a chance of

the audience matching what you're looking
for, but this Match will be much smaller

if you, than if you, for example, look
for the influencers in the specific niche.

So first of all, make sure that
the content is aligned with what

your product is, and then just
do the same with the audience.

So ask for the stats and look at the
comments check that the audience is

actually interested in the pieces of
content that the influencer is creating.

And it's not just, all of the views
from FYP or from in platform promotion.

So you have to make sure that the
audience is real, it's engaged, it is

interested in what the influencer has
to say and to show to actually see

if, They will trust the recommendation
that the influencer will be doing.

Then another thing to look for is
content quality and visual style, because

if you're interested in using this
content later in sorry in other sources

of driving traffic, then you have to
make sure that the video creatives are

looking good there in high quality.

And they also align with your brand ideas.

And your brand values.

What you do next is you go
look at the numbers, let's say.

You look at the engagement
rate of the influencer.

You try to back all of your ideas
with some data that is available when

looking at the influencer's profile.

Obviously you look at the cost efficiency.

And try to calculate the the CPM to
actually see if the specific influencer.

will likely bring enough traffic
even for the brand campaign for

you to be spending some additional
budget on buying a creative or on

buying a post from this influencer.

Another good thing to be looking
out for is actually the examples

of the previous collaborations the
influencer had with other brands.

Even before approaching the influencer,
it is quite a nice way to get a

glimpse of what you're likely to
get for the price you're paying.

You can also just look for
examples to visually understand

of how it's going to look.

Or you can Do a smarter thing and
you can look for all of the posts

that the influencer has created
over time for different brands.

And you can section them into some
repetitive posts for the specific brand.

So if one influencer has been making, I
don't know, like five to 10 posts for the

same brand in terms of several months.

This is likely due to the fact
that the influencer provides good

performance and the brand is rehiring
this influencer over and over.

The tricky thing in here can be that many
brands do work on a views guarantee basis.

And if the influencer didn't
reach the necessary views number,

then the influencer must produce
another piece of content for free.

To actually gather these views, but
you can exclude those cases just simply

by looking at the timeline of those
publications, because if it is abuse

guarantee deal and the influencer has
a second post for the same brand in,

let's say 30 to 60 days from the first
publication, then this may be a abuse

guarantee, like complimentary video.

But if the influencer
drives and creates a lot of.

Posts for the same brand in terms
of six months or three months,

then we're not talking about the
views guarantee, but we're actually

looking at a nice influencer with
loyal audience that creates good

content that actually brings users.

And it makes sense for the brands to
be rehiring the influencer for the

promotion of the product because.

The ad works.

Kunle: interesting,
super, super interesting.

I really like your points
on the views guarantee.

Do you think it should be
incorporated in every contract?

Nadia: Oh yeah, 100%.

That's what we're doing because with
TikTok, for example it's very hard

to estimate and to forecast how many
views we're actually going to get.

Because TikTok's algorithms are
built differently, and the videos

gather views not so much from the
followers base, but from the FYP.

Of course, if we're talking about YouTube,
a views guarantee is easy to estimate,

it's easy to agree on with influencers.

We try to use either a views guarantee
or a CPM deal as much as we can.

Kunle: Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

That makes sense.

And it's the start of all open for
you to verify and validate anyway.

Yeah.

Makes sense.

Makes sense.

Just looking one more points on tick talk.

I'm just trying to figure out
if there's any other points

we should speak to tick talk.

So with, so you think it's just spark
ads just because they're clickable.

Doesn't make sense buying bio links.

It's much more direct.

You could see the results and
you could, get your conversions.

Would you also, encourage tick
tock shop or or that's another

sort of activity separate from
influencer marketing for performance.

Nadia: would say that it's a
totally different direction.

Of promoting your product.

I wouldn't say that there are like
That many ways of making it connected

with the influencer marketing strategy
that you might be leveraging while

selling your product on tech talk.

Kunle: Okay.

Okay.

And then can you replicate this for
IG, what you've just said, or would

you just strictly go with an IG stories
strategy for IG and performance space?

Nadia: What we actually did on IG
with that we use influencers and

Insta stories to promote specific
products of a specific brand.

And we were driving traffic to
the Instagram profile of this

brand after showing a specific.

product to the audience using like
the IG stories of these influencers.

Once they go to the profile of the
brand, they hit the follow button.

They since they already saw the product
and they were already interested

enough in it to just go over to the
profile and to hit the follow button.

The info, the users that were brought by
these influencers are likely to go to the

ID shop and to see the product to try.

To even buy it straight away from the
ig shop but these are like very rare

cases because you can't actually track
it that good to see if The specific

user that was following this specific
influencer actually followed The brand

profile and then went to the ig shop, etc.

We usually Try to divide it
into separate activities.

Differentiating the influence
marketing perspectives and

processes from the platform shops.

Kunle: Okay.

Okay.

So for listeners trying to figure
out some performance on Instagram

stories, do you want us to break down
the process and how it's achieved?

Nadia: Yeah the first thing that
we have to think about is how are

we going to promote the product?

What exactly should be shown?

What exactly should be said?

I'm not saying that you should write
a detailed script for each influencer

of what to say, when to sneeze,
et cetera, but you really have to

provide them with the key points,
the strong points of the product.

And some regulations of what.

Should be said what should be skipped
like comparing the products to the

competitors or something like that
and Then once the brief for the

influencers is ready The influencers
usually create their videos and they

share it with you for Like approval.

So if you have something to add, if
you're not sure about something obviously

you ask the influencer to change it.

Once you're satisfied enough with the
video you can actually go to posting them.

And in here, the very important
thing is to not be limiting

yourself and the influencers
with just creating the stories.

Hi, let me tell you about the product.

This is it.

Look at it.

Go buy it.

But you should also try to think
together with the influencers how you

can actually integrate the product
in a specific day or into a specific

storyline that the influencer is guiding
the audience through on this day.

So you have to think about the
the background, the context.

The pre story that will be leading to
those insta stories about the product.

Oh,

Kunle: for cutting you short Nadia,
but there are situations in which like

the influencer would have posted seven
different posts promoting other brands.

And then your your post is
number eight on the same day.

Nadia: that is actually
handled by the contract.

You should never agree to that.

I would say that the number one thing
that many brands don't think about is

signing a contract with the influencer
that actually saves you from all of that.

Because

Kunle: we need to, before you leave,
we need to talk about what should

be incorporated in a contract,

Nadia: it looks like it.

Kunle: sorry, please.

I caught you short on the just the
context you were speaking to the context

Nadia: Yeah.

You should elaborate on the context
of what's going on in the influencer's

life, why they're actually interested
in your product and why the user

should be interested in that product.

Because what worked four years ago, Is
not working that good now and it hasn't

been working that good for I would say
a couple of years now so If back then

you could just shoot some stories about
The product without preheating the

audience without trying to insert the
ads into the context of the influencer's

life it won't work now because it
has been done too many times now and

you really have to think about this
story leading to your product stories.

Like a storyline some kind of
occasion in the influencer's life

or some kind of events that will
actually be then connected to the

recommendation of the product.

Obviously another thing you should
do is put the link on several

stories, not just on, on one of them.

If we're talking about,

Kunle: how many frames should be in
a typical, how many frames is too

little and how many frames is too much.

Nadia: I would say one, one, two frames
is too little, too much is anything.

More than six.

Kunle: Okay.

Makes sense.

Makes sense.

Nadia: The audience will just get bored.

They will just get tired of
watching six instastories about

the same thing, especially if
each story is not like 15 seconds.

But if it's 60 or 35 or 40, then it just
becomes too much to keep your attention.

Kunle: Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

And then would you off
give a special offer?

Or how, or is it just a link?

What

Nadia: Usually a special offer or
some kind of welcome bonus for the

users who came from the specific
influencer is always a great hoop.

A discount a promo code or an
additional gift, like one plus

one, any kind of special offer
is a great hook for the audience.

What you do is you showcase the strongest,
first of all, you create the storyline

to integrate your product into, then you
use the influencer to really showcase

the product to dwell on its strengths.

And really showcase them then interest
the audience into buying this product.

And then what you do is you throw
in the special offer, you throw in a

really good CDA and obviously a link.

Kunle: what's a CDA?

Nadia: Culture actioning.

Kunle: Okay.

CTA.

Okay.

Okay.

So integrate your products or storyline
precursor to the recommendation of the

offer, integrate the product into their
lifestyle, probably from a previous

post, which links directly into it.

So it's very, it feels very native.

Showcase a product, interest,
audience, and then special offer CTA.

Okay.

That makes a lot of sense.

And then what about the,
what kind of metrics?

We talked in tech talk about how
to select a, an influencer or

a creator in their marketplace.

And you talked about audience
alignment, content, alignment, content,

quality and visual style, CPMs and
all of that stuff in IG stories.

How should you not get
it wrong by selection?

What should you be looking
out for with an influencer?

Nadia: First of all, you should
always be looking at the publication

schedule of the influencer.

So if you're interested
in IG stories, but.

The influencer that you are looking
at seems like a great fit, but they

mostly do Instagram posts, feed
posts and they don't do stories much.

Then it's not a good idea to asking this
influencer for IG stories because the

reach on these stories and the impressions
on these stories are gonna be much lower.

You have to make sure that the influencer
is posting, enough content on IG

stories for at least a week before
your brand deal, because this way you

will be sure that the algorithms will
bring enough users to their stories

before that the profile will be heated
up and you are much more likely to

get more rich on the stories that you
will be buying from this influencer.

Kunle: Okay.

Nadia: thing is to ask for fresh stats
from the influencer, because a lot of IG

influencers and even a lot of IG talent
agencies or managers who do represent

those influencers, what they like to do
is getting the screenshots of the best

performing days reach wise on IG story,
and they will sort them and they will

sort them from like the best videos to
the worst videos that won't be even seen.

On the screenshot.

And this is where a lot of brands get
tricked because they see this big numbers,

they're happy, they see a nice CPM, they
see a good value in this collaboration.

And then once the story goes live and
they ask for a actual views number

and actual reach and impressions,
they see that if before they

were hoping for 100, 000 views.

Based on the screenshots that were
shared by the influencer and they,

their story only got like 15k.

You paid for 100k, not 15k.

This is what happens a lot.

So always ask for the fresh stats.

Check what stories the
influencer posted that day.

And ask for the stats from this exam day.

So you know that this is actually a pretty
fresh stats screenshot, and you can dwell

on the info that is presented there.

Kunle: Make sense.

Make sense.

Makes sense.

You just mentioned something
that's quite interesting, which

is like your target impressions.

So how do you structure the camp?

The contract is it to, is it just
posts give me post or when we're

looking for this many impressions

Nadia: again, it depends on
the type of the campaign.

If we're talking about Okay on Instagram
stories, it can be a bit tricky because

the influencers themselves cannot be sure
at what exact numbers they're going to

be looking at this day or another day.

With the YouTube and TikTok, It's actually
much easier to predict and to guarantee

even for the influencers because it's not
our job to trick the influencers either.

We want this to be a fruitful
collaboration that will be

beneficial for both sides.

So on Instagram, we don't
do views guarantees as much.

If we're talking about reels, yes, we
try to incorporate the views guarantee

in there, but in stories not so much.

Kunle: Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

So in stories, what you think are the
most important points or terms in a, in

an agreement that essentially ensures that
that protects a brand and almost ensures

deliverability and just minimizes loss.

Nadia: Obviously the number one thing
would be that the influencer must post

some content before posting our stories
about the brand, about the product

to heat up the algorithm to actually
bring the audience to the influencer.

And then once the influencer will
be posting out our stories, this

Kunle: How many, sorry, how many, two,

Nadia: That depends on how many stories
the influencer is typically posting.

So if we're talking about those guys
that are posting like a hundred stories

per day, then obviously the numbers
are going to be different from those

who post two to five stories a day.

It should be just, It's a logical amount
for the audience to be heated up, 20

or 30 percent of the average number
of stories that they post per day.

And only after this 20 to 30 percent
of stories are posted, we can actually

go with our branded IG stories.

Another thing, there should be no other
branded stories or other branded content

for any other brand, aside from our brand.

Neither one day before our
publication, not during the day

that our publication is active.

And only after our IG story is
gone, the influencer can actually

go with other brand deals.

It also it's not only about the brand
deals that are based on fixed flat

fee, but also different affiliate
links sometimes even Amazon links that

bring users to a specific product.

So we're really have to structure
what kind of products we are showing

to the influencers audience that day.

Kunle: Okay, makes sense.

Makes sense.

What other components
should be in the contract?

Nadia: Obviously views guarantee
if you're able to agree with an

influencer on one At that point,

Kunle: structure the views guarantee?

Would you just average out the last 30
views and just say, okay, this is the.

Nadia: yeah, what we do is we look at
all the recent publications, we cross

out those who obviously just went
viral for no reason or for a reason

that is only algorithm and not us and
we try to look at the real numbers

once we calculate like the median we
write that number into the contract.

Another thing that we do is we
always have the clause that the

influencer will only get their
remuneration after the publication.

If they send us the screenshot with the
full statistics on the post that they

made, because a lot of influencers just
like to, or managers, Also differs.

What they like to do is to make the posts,
to get the payment and to just disappear.

And they don't care about performance.

They don't care about providing the
stats on this publication, but we

needed to analyze the performance.

We needed to analyze each influencer.

So we always use this statement
that the payment will be made.

Only after we have
received the screenshots.

another thing that we do sorry, I, I just

Kunle: Cool.

No,

Nadia: wrote this one is we
always include the link to the

task assignment or to the brief.

Into the contract so that there is
a specific reference to a specific

brief that the influencer should be
following because if the manager or the

influencer does not cover the brief points
100%, we have the right to change it.

We have the right to ask for adjustments.

If you don't have the link to the
task assignment, or if you just

told the influencer I don't know.

You know your audience better, you do you
you will probably not have this option.

Kunle: Okay.

Makes sense.

Makes sense.

Makes sense.

Okay.

They should warm up their
accounts, which is 20 to 30

percent of average posts per day.

So if they're doing 20 posts, typically
they should at least try and get in four

or five posts before they post yours.

They must post on or they, there
must be no other branded content or

even affiliate links one day prior.

And on the day and until the expiry and
then you should, you could incorporate

a views guarantee based on averages Just
taking out some, viral post and then

you must link to the task, assignment or
brief in the contract Which gives you that

ability and rights to change should you
know they not adhere to your guidelines

or your brief okay that makes sense.

And then do you look at
when you're assessing them?

Do you look at their the average story
views, what story views looks good?

Do you look at their link
clicks data the historical link

clicks data to make a decision?

From a performance standpoint

Nadia: I would say that we don't
just look at the number of views

or like the reach on the stories.

Because sometimes we work with smaller
influencers, sometimes we work with

bigger influencers, so it differs a lot
on each campaign and each strategy, but

what we What we are actually looking
at is the stability of those views.

So even if we're looking at the first
or second screenshot of the stories that

was shared with us, we try to avoid the
influencers who have, I don't know, 100,

000 views on the first screenshot, on the
first story, and then 30k on the last one.

Because that is too big of a difference,
and this is risky for us to be spending

the budget on these kinds of influencers
if they don't provide a guarantee.

Kunle: Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

And then obviously you have an
internal price and mechanism,

based on average story views.

So if it's 30, 000, story
views, they're worth this much.

There's no way you can pay
more if it's 50, 100, is that

the case there internally?

Or

Nadia: Yeah we usually calculate
the prices and Estimated cost

efficiency based on the CPM.

So we have the price, we have
the use number, and then we just

Kunle: what's a good CPM
in 2024 for IG stories

Nadia: that heavily depends on the region.

So if we're talking about Latin
America, it will be five to six.

If we're talking about the United States
25, I would say would be the lowest, so

it just starts at 25 and it goes up and up

Kunle: to 100, it could go
as much as a hundred CPM.

Nadia: niche content.

Yeah.

Easily.

And it could actually drive sales.

Kunle: What about the profile of the
influencer from a conversion standpoint?

We've tried some mini celebrities,
celebrities that have been like maybe

in real housewives of Atlanta or,
those and they tend not to, Really

deliver from a performance standpoint.

Should you what's a psychography
of, or it's like a graphic

structure of an influencer you
may want to work with influencers.

Do you have any red flags in
terms of who not to work with?

I think that's a better
way to frame that question.

Nadia: We do have this kind of
regulations, but mostly from

a brand safety point So if the
influencer was involved in some

scandalous Shows or some beef.

I don't know the other influencers or
just basically if the influencer does

not Sorry if the influencer does not
have a Nice reputation Then we tend to

skip it Keep this influencer because even
if we do run an ad with This influencer

there is no guarantee that this will not
actually become detrimental to a brand

So you really have to check all those
guys on their beliefs and what they

Kunle: Okay.

I know we're running out of time or
run out of time, but do you want to

just briefly speak to YouTube, from
a performance standpoint what's the

top things to be aware of listeners
should really be aware of on YouTube

when running performance ads.

Nadia: Obviously it's the views
guarantee on youtube It's easy to

get a views guarantee or a cpm deal
from an influencer because everyone

understands what it is They understand
the performance of their channel.

They understand the metrics they know
it all so the influencers who are sure

in their content and confident in being
able to deliver the specific performance,

they all agree on use guarantee.

Another thing is to analyze the stats.

For example, on YouTube, you can
analyze basically everything.

You can analyze the languages, you
can analyze the all of the regions,

all of the countries, the age groups,
the devices that are used by your

audience to To watch the videos, etc.

You can even analyze the depth
of a view of a video view.

So like how long a user is
watching the video in general.

For a video of, 10 minutes.

Usually the average is
four or five minutes.

So not everyone watches the
video up to the very end.

In these cases, it does not
have any sense, it does not make

any sense in putting the ads in
the second part of the video.

So you can actually watch the video
Analyze quite a lot of things.

When launching a performance campaign on
YouTube, you obviously can add the link.

It will be click clickable, but you have
to take organic traffic into account.

If you have several influencers going
live in a period of one week, then you

definitely should make the measurements
of organic traffic before their

postings and after their postings.

As well as one month after the
campaign because there will be

a lot of organic traffic and if
you don't Even try to measure it.

You will just lose all the stats and
you may just bury youtube for you and

it Brought a lot of thoughts to you.

Kunle: I agree.

And the organic would would comprise
of Google as well as direct.

You just understand the ebbs and the
flows that you can use like SEM rush

to, to really measure that if your
website's cut is calculated is connected.

Are there any other YouTube points,
to, we should be aware of when engaging

or selecting a YouTube influencer.

Nadia: off the top of my mind, I would
say that is mostly it the Oh, no, actually

another very important thing on youtube
is to actually go through the comments

to the video and to see if the influencer
has authentic audience and not some bots.

You should actually see how the
audience is reacting to the influencer

in the comment section whether they're
really interested in the video,

whether they're really interested
in the content or the influencer,

it's himself or herself because the
comment section really does show a lot.

And does tell a lot about the relationship
between the influencer and the audience

as well as whether the influencer Whether
the audience trusts the influencer

about his, product recommendations

Kunle: What about the CPM for
YouTube say North America?

Nadia: Obviously depends on the
content, but the lowest I would

say would be 20 cpm 20 cpm and
The realistic average, 25 to 30.

Of course there are content
categories that are much cheaper.

Usually these tend to be the
categories with the younger audience.

But if we're talking about science
and tech creators, their CPMs are

going to be even higher than that.

If we're talking about business
or motivation or finance channels,

then those CPMs are even higher.

Kunle: Yeah.

Yeah makes a lot of sense.

Makes a lot of sense.

Nadia we could go on and on.

Not this in of itself is, it's like a,
like an online course, without the slides,

on, on influencer marketing, particularly
with regards to its application to

performance, marketing for e com that
you've touched on so many points.

The show notes of this
episode are going to be juicy.

So for listeners who.

Once you've get all this summarized
I'm going to make sure that our

team put together, very detailed
sets of show notes for you.

So just head over to 2X e commerce,
dot com to, to get, to grab that Nadia.

Just wrapping things up.

What are your thoughts on the on, on the,
on where influencer marketing is headed?

Do you see any new platforms coming?

How do you see the dynamics of
platforms, particularly for e commerce

which is the audience of this podcast?

Nadia: That's actually a very good
question because I think that for

now the main players, the main
platforms that all the campaigns

are based on will stay the same.

I have not yet seen the platform that can
be competitive with Instagram or TikTok

aside from Pinterest, but Pinterest
is not a new platform whatsoever.

So I think that for now the main players
such as Instagram, YouTube, TikTok,

Pinterest, and probably Twitch for
gaming related products will stay the

same, but we're always on the lookout
of the new platforms to, to follow the

trends and to be able to catch this
audience, the fresh audience that has

not been spoiled by a lot of Yeah,

Kunle: That's a fine way
to wrap this episode up.

So for people who want find out more,
as in this, all the information you

shared, just is reflective of the
level of detail your agency things

gets into with influencer marketing.

So for people who want to find
out more about how to work

with yourselves, it's FAM.

E S T E R S fame stars.

com.

I'll link to it in the show notes.

Are you active on any
social media platforms?

Do you post anything about social, either
your agency or yourself personally?

Nadia: obviously you can find me
on LinkedIn by Nadia Famesters,

or if you're confident, you can
try searching by my surname.

You

Kunle: Okay.

I will link to, I've actually
sent you a connection request.

But by Nick over is your surname.

So I think I, I didn't slaughter it.

I hope.

Nadia: Good.

Kunle: but yeah, I did good.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So Nadia, it's been a
pleasure meeting you.

We're grateful.

We thank you for all the the insights
you've shared and, have a good one.

Nadia: Yeah, you too, thank
you for having me, and I'm

really glad to be a part of it.