2X eCommerce Podcast

Kunle Campbell: So six years ago.

I had everything.

I had that company.

We were doing millions of dollars a year.

I had my wife, my kids, the house.

I had everything.

And then within two years
of that, I was divorced.

I had to sell my house, I was living in my
aunt's basement because we sold the house.

I only saw my kids half the time.

So I had hit rock bottom
in this moment, right?

I was burnt out.

I was out of shape.

And a lot of it was because
I was getting terrible sleep.

Mhm.

Kunle Campbell: we're
partnered with the UFC.

We're the official sleep
aid partner of UFC.

We're partners with Joe
Rogan and his podcast.

And I don't go anywhere without
people saying, Oh my God, I use you.

You saved my life.

Or saying I see you guys everywhere.

Mhm.

Kunle Campbell: When I thought
about it, I went, okay, is

there a big enough TAM here?

There absolutely is.

There's 128 million households in the U.

S.

Over 71 percent of them mouth breathe

Mhm.

so on this episode of the 2x eCommerce
podcast, we dive into how Alex Neist

built and rapidly scaled hostage
tape into a multimillion dollar brand

by revolutionizing sleep quality
and mastering social advertising.

This is the 2x e commerce
podcast hosted by Kunle Campbell.

Welcome to the 2x eCommerce podcast.

I'm your host, Kunle Campbell,
and this is the podcast dedicated

to rapid growth in online retail.

The episode you're about to listen
to is one of my favorite this year.

I had the pleasure of
speaking with Alex Neist.

He's the founder of Hostage Tape.

This conversation touched
me on so many key aspects.

I hold dear health, fitness, marketing,
growth, business resilience, Alex stories,

incredibly inspiring in their second
year, his business generated 14 million

in revenue profitably, and he was still
personally managing their Facebook ads,

his dedication of taking full control
and responsibility for the outcome.

Is something I deeply respect.

What makes this business
remarkable is how it started.

I like to read a book about
sleep, saw a gap in the market

and recognize a huge opportunity.

He executed brilliantly his personal
story, including overcoming divorce

and using business as a means
to regain control of his life is

truly inspiring and compelling.

If.

You're looking for inspiration on
building a business with a strong brand,

a solid product and flawless execution.

This episode is a must listen.

Alex is full of wisdom and perseverance.

I could have split this into two episodes,
but you deserve to hear it all at one go.

There's a lot to unpack.

So if you need to take notes, don't worry.

I've made sure the show notes
as comprehensive covering

all resources we discussed.

This is a great entrepreneurial
story that addresses strategy and

tactics, which is why the interview
is an hour and a half long.

So enjoy the special conversation
and stay inspired before we dive in.

Please make sure to follow 2x
eCommerce podcast on your preferred

platform by doing so you'll never
miss an episode and you'll help us

continue to bring more interesting
and inspiring guests like Alex.

So thank you.

Mhm.

Kunle Campbell: Hey, Alex, welcome
to the 2X eCommerce podcast.

I've been looking forward to
speaking with you for a while.

Alex Neist: It's great to be here.

I appreciate it.

Kunle Campbell: Yeah.

You guys pushed it as in I've
been waiting for eight weeks or

thereabouts, but yeah, good things come.

Yeah.

things come to those who wait, of

Who waits exactly.

Thank you for finishing me,
finishing that, that sentence.

Okay.

Let's let, I would like to
know more about you, Alex.

I know a little about you.

I know you were running a a SAS
business for many years, over a decade.

Who are you?

Do you want to just give us a
your background and your journey

Alex Neist: Yeah, you got it.

What's funny is if you can see
in the video here is there's

some football jerseys here.

American football.

That's my background.

I grew up a kid in the States.

I'll tell this story.

This is a great story.

When I was about maybe 12, 13 years
old, I was at a birthday party.

And they handed out these packs
of Topps football cards American

football cards and just trading cards.

And I got this pack of cards and the
last card in was a Joe Montana card.

And Joe Montana, at the time in
the 90s, he's widely regarded

as one of the greatest American
football quarterbacks in history.

Obviously Tom Brady has surpassed
him at this point as the GOAT.

But the getting that card.

Was one of those moments where everybody
went, Oh my God, you got Joe Montana.

He's the greatest quarterback.

Whoa.

And so for me, it was a
very interesting moment of.

Wow, maybe this is what I want to be.

And so then I fell in love with American
football becoming a quarterback and

I put my heart and soul into that.

And that was my first
love was playing football.

And so then I went on through high
school and there's a recurring pattern

of who I am and that is created.

Who I've become is every level.

of football that I played.

I was never the guy.

So I always had a chip on my shoulder
and I had something to prove.

So when I got in high school, everybody
thought it was going to be some

other guys, the starting quarterback.

And I said, no, it's going to be me.

And so I proved everybody wrong and
I became the starting quarterback.

And then nobody thought I was
going to go play college football.

And then I did, I went on and I played
college football and then nobody thought

I was going to play professional.

And I'm like, no, I know I can play.

I went on and I played a
level of professional football

that's called arena football.

Imagine if you went to a basketball
game or like an ice hockey game and

the court was a turf field, right?

And then you had eight guys versus
eight guys, very intimate setting,

maybe 10, people on top of you.

And so I played that and these
are my jerseys that I played

that for about five, six years.

Because I was hoping to
become an NFL quarterback.

It didn't happen.

So then I took all of that, all of those
experiences as a player my whole life.

That first love and I started a business
so I started a software company that

was centered around this concept of as a
player and as a coach, how do we use video

to become a better player or as a coach
to teach your players more effectively?

So I took that concept and I built a
business around it and then I scaled

it and I ran it and I bootstrapped
it for about 16 years until then

I ended up selling it and then.

Was vest I vested out that equity
and then I started my next company.

Kunle Campbell: Okay.

So your clients were sports, were
coaches or sports teams with a

Yeah both so

sounds

about more amateur level like we're
talking University college high school

youth level not really pro level.

Most pro levels They have their own video
departments that do this kind of stuff.

So so imagine this Imagine you've got
a a university team a club team a youth

team high school team Whatever level
that is let's use soccer or football

and let's say you've got
that, you've got that team.

Let's say they're 15 year olds
and you're filming that match.

The problem that coach and that team has
is maybe that team's only got one coach.

So you've got a 90 minute match of video.

How do you actually use that video
to teach your players, prepare,

pull something out of it, and
then move on to the next game?

Most of those coaches and teams
don't have the ability to do that

because they just don't have the
resources, the time, and the help.

So I developed a system where You
could have that game filmed, you

could film it, upload it, and then
we would use human intelligence

to watch the game, add data to it.

So that way then when the coach
woke up the next day, he could

pull up all the set pieces, the
corner kicks, the shots on goal.

All those unique moments in a match
that you can then teach your players and

then move on and go to the next game.

And so then I scaled that for 16 years and
then I ended up selling it to a company.

On a Tel Aviv.

And yeah.

So that was just using my background
of of being an athlete and a coach.

Anything I start has always been
something I'm very passionate about

that's very close to my chest.

And so football being my first love
in sports and being an athlete, I knew

I'm gonna start a business around that.

About what I know.

And then that's where my
entrepreneurial career started,

generative AI or chat GPT for
sports, to really get the most out

Here But using human intelligence.

human

So it was, even now to this day, the idea
of using pure AI to analyze a game it's

only done at the professional level by
really expensive, complicated systems

that still take a long time to render.

All the information, the data, like
it's being done in the NBA level, it's

being done at some baseball level,
it's being done at some soccer level,

football level, all of that, but there
still is, there's still a level of

data where it has to be audited by a
human being to actually add more value

to it that a coach could actually use.

And this was 10 years ago.

This didn't exist at all, and I pioneered
this concept of actually using humans to

watch a game, and then add data to it, and
have about a 6 hour turnaround, so then a

coach could have that game done within 6
hours, and then they could pull out stuff.

So it was AI in the sense of human.

intelligence rather than
artificial intelligence.

Got it.

Humans lost.

Take it what's that?

Amazon service Turk something.

Yeah.

It was like, it was exactly the mechanic.

It was the mechanical Turk, but we
designed our own Turk system using our

own people and our own queuing system.

So we actually designed a queuing
system that would scale both

vertically and horizontally,
very similar to how Uber works.

In fact, we were really proud
of how we designed this.

And for example let's say we knew
we would have 1, 000 games that

would be uploaded on a night.

We would have a certain amount of guys who
would flip on, make themselves available,

just like a guy who's driving an Uber.

And then when games got uploaded,
they would automatically get

assigned to whoever's available.

And then if they were available and
they got assigned a game, if they

didn't start it within 30 minutes,
it got pulled and then reassigned

to somebody else automatically.

So it incentivized them to
actually get started on the game.

And if they didn't start,
Then they would lose the work.

Super interesting.

Super interesting.

What did you sell it for?

How much did you sell it for?

To the Israeli company?

Undisclosed i'm not gonna I won't
discuss how much we sold it for

but I sold it for a combination

Alex, are you there?

I'm here.

You got me?

Okay.

Yeah.

Got you.

So i'm not gonna disclose how much
I sold it for but I sold it for a

combination of cash and equity So there
was an amount of cash that we got and

then there was an amount of equity
that we got in The company that I

actually still own part of the company.

And then I had to vest out two years.

So when I sold it, got acquired,
became a part of that company.

I became the head of analytics.

For the company, and then was
there for two years before I

then left to launch this company.

okay.

So what's a precursor to
launch in hostage tape?

Why did you, why sleep?

And how did this become?

Yeah, so the story really comes down to,
it's this hero's journey that I tell.

So six years ago, back when I was
in the middle of that company.

Not the middle of it,
the end of it, really.

I had everything.

I had that company.

We were doing millions of dollars a year.

I had my wife, my kids, the house.

I had everything.

And then within two years
of that, I was divorced.

I had to sell my house, I was living in my
aunt's basement because we sold the house.

I only saw my kids half the time.

So I had hit rock bottom
in this moment, right?

I was burnt out.

I was out of shape.

And a lot of it was because
I was getting terrible sleep.

I snored so bad that it pushed my
wife into the other bedroom for years.

And our intimacy eroded.

I was burnt out again,
out of shape, right?

Neglected myself.

And I was also, I was just so
focused on the business that I

wasn't taking care of myself.

And so all of that start to
compound and get worse and worse.

Any entrepreneur listening to this knows
exactly what I'm talking about, right?

You can get so focused on something
and then you lose yourself.

And also having been an athlete and
then retiring, you lose yourself too.

Any athlete would tell you that when they
shut that part of their life off, you'd

have, you have to figure out who you are.

And even though I was an entrepreneur,
it was still difficult to be.

Come somebody brand new to become
a father to become all these new

things So I was at this moment where
I'm like, all right What do I got

to do to become a better man father?

Partner all leader all of these things and
I hated the job that I sold my company to

I hated it And in any entrepreneur will
tell you that when you sell your company

You always have these like delusions of
grandeur of where you're gonna go with

it at the end of the day the company
doesn't really want you They just wants

they want this thing that you built And
then they want to get rid of you, right?

Because they want to be able to control
the thing you built and they know that

they can't control you as an entrepreneur.

So I knew I needed to get out
and then start my own thing.

So there was that whole struggle.

So I started looking at my sleep and
I discovered this book that James

Nestor wrote, where he talks about
this experiment where they went to

Stanford medical center and they
plugged their nose for 10 days.

And then over those 10 days to
develop sleep apnea and they snored

like crazy and had dangerously low
levels of oxygen in their blood.

And then after those 10 days, they
unplugged their nose, they mouth taped,

and everything went away in one day.

So for me, the light bulb went off
and I went, Whoa, was it really

that easy like mouth breathing

My coaches had never taught me this
being that athlete my whole life in

Western culture over in America, like we
seem to have lost this whole concept of

nose breathing and mouth breathing, why
they're important, why they're different

and why we shouldn't be mouth breathing.

And so when I went on and I discovered
mouth taping, I did it for the first time.

It like blew me away.

I couldn't believe how simple it was
and how life changing it was because

just, I was jolting for me at how
good a sleep I got when I tried it.

So as an entrepreneur, I
went, Whoa, this is it.

This is what I can do
because the reality is.

You're not going to inspire men to buy
3M micropore tape or, surgical tape

on Amazon to mouth tape every night.

That's not inspiring at all.

So I knew that I needed to start a
brand and I was inspired at the time

by liquid death, love liquid death.

And what I love about what Mike did.

So Mike Cesario, the CEO of liquid
death is he took the biggest commodity

in the, on the world, in the planet
And created a brand around it and

they're a nine figure, probably
going to be a ten figure business.

And they're selling the ultimate
commodity, so I knew, alright,

I'm selling an adhesive tape like
product, which is really a commodity.

Granted, it's a very specific type
of tape that's different than a

normal tape you might get at the
store, but it's tape nonetheless.

So I knew if I'm going to build up a giant
business around this, I have to have a

brand just like what Liquid Death did.

And I knew I could do it.

And I was also inspired by Moiz
Ali who created Native Deodorant.

And I'd always heard Moiz talk about
how you can walk down the aisle as a

target and you can see a wall of white,
a wall of blue, or a wall of green and

know that there's an opportunity there.

There's an opportunity to create
something that stands out.

Because that means then, all
right, there's a big enough TAM.

And there's an opportunity and then
marketing is all about creating

something that gets people's
attention and starts a conversation.

So when I thought about it, I went,
okay, is there a big enough TAM here?

There absolutely is.

There's 128 million households in the U.

S.

Over 71 percent of them mouth breathe.

That's a lot of people.

Just in the U.

S.

alone.

So I knew TAN is there and if I created
this brand then I could inspire men Just

like this helped me to start doing this
crazy thing called mouth taping And so

at the time when I started mouth taping
I used to warn my kid that would say

hey guys If you come into the room at
night and you see me, it's gonna look

like I'm being held hostage So don't
freak out because when you wear tape

on your mouth, it looks really funny

yeah.

It looks like you're a hostage,
but on the flip side of that, I

knew that we're tapping into this
core emotion that people feel.

People feel held hostage by a
poor sleeper, their partner,

and they don't know what to do.

So double play there.

Don't let bad sleep hold you hostage.

That's

Hostage tape.

And I knew that when you're scrolling
through your Instagram account,

how do I stop the scroll and get you to
pay attention and start a conversation?

And everybody that sees hostage tape stops
and goes, What the hell is this right?

It's very polarizing and a great
brand creates that it creates

something that you either love it
Or you hate it and it always starts

a conversation and I've never met
somebody that didn't see the brand and

go Oh my god, I've never forgot it.

I can't believe you had you know,
the cojones to actually call

something hostage tape So just
knew, I knew that was the way.

And now two years after we started it.

So in year one, we'd
900 K and then we did.

14 million.

And now we're on a path to do 30, 40, 50
million, this year and we'll be the first

mouth tape brand in big retail next year.

And we're partnered with the UFC.

We're the official sleep
aid partner of UFC.

We're partners with Joe
Rogan and his podcast.

And I don't go anywhere without
people saying, Oh my God, I use you.

You saved my life.

Or saying I see you guys everywhere.

Oh wow, there's a lot to unpack there,
there's a lot to unpack there, Alex,

there's just a lot to unpack there.

By the way, the name of the James
Nesta book is called Breathe,

for anybody who's listening, I'll
link to it in the show notes.

Okay, so how's family life now?

And have you found purpose beyond the,
all that turmoil that, the precursor

to, to yeah, to founding Austin Table.

Yeah.

Story is the end.

So now that I've actually became the
man, the father, the partner, that

I'm proud to be today, right after
going through that journey and doing

a lot of self work, fixing my sleep,
building this company, I'm a big

believer in the law of attraction in
the universe and those kinds of things

that some people might think are woo.

I'm a big believer in that.

And so becoming that person, that man,
one day I encrypt that drop off, my

wife came up to the car and we had
our first conversation in two years.

And then she invited me into
her home, saw my kids bedroom

for the first time in two years.

And then now we sleep
in the same bed again.

Every once in a while I'll forget
to put the tape on and she'll bump

me and say, honey, put your tape on.

Because now my wife, my kids
and I were back together

Oh

So well, it came full circle back.

to reconciling after going
through that journey.

And I don't regret it because if
I hadn't have gone through that,

if you don't go through failure
and struggle, then it doesn't.

You don't learn, you don't
become something greater.

And so having gone through that,
I'm proud to have gone through

that and become who I am now.

That's super interesting.

Super interesting.

Let's go back just a little bit to,
to, to when you realized that there

was an opportunity, you saw the time.

So it's all addressable markets
and you're like, okay this is good.

Were they any of the sleep tape
brands in the market at the time?

Okay.

Yeah, there was one brand, was not very
good, I won't call them out by name.

But their branding was not very good.

And so it was a good, it was a great
lesson in looking at an opportunity and

going, there's a great opportunity here.

You just have to create a great brand.

And they really hadn't
created a great brand.

So I knew that was.

That was where we could stand out.

And also too the reality is,
you could just go buy 3M tape.

Surgical tape, right?

There's all sorts of tapes that doctors
use on people, on their skin, right?

And, But the funny thing was, is I
knew that when I was experimenting

myself, this is why it actually came
about was, at the beginning of any

business that you start, you always
wonder okay is this really a business?

Can this really be that big?

Are people going to see through this
and just think, why would I buy that?

I could just buy this instead.

There's always that doubt
that you have in your mind.

And I had that doubt, but the more
that I experimented with just other

pieces of tape, I started to realize,
there's an opportunity here because

most tape doesn't feel very comfortable.

It's really rigid, really uncomfortable,
doesn't work well with facial

hair, doesn't work well with bumps
and ridges and all these other

things going on with our faces.

And, In James's book, he
actually describes using just a

small piece of tape vertically.

So I tried that, but the problem
for me was like, that didn't work.

I just popped it right off.

So I knew, I'm like, okay, I have
to wear it all the way across my

mouth in order for it to stay shut.

Otherwise, I'm just going to pop it open
and I'm going to be mouth breathing again.

And also, it's got to
work with facial hair.

I don't have as much facial hair as some
people do, but there's some guys who got

really, big mustache and beards and I
would hear them say, I can't mouth tape

at all because I can't find a tape that
actually works, keeps my mouth shut.

So I knew it had to be comfortable,
had to be strong, and it had to

work with facial hair and it had
to be targeted to middle aged men.

So I purposely niched down and went after
and so we were looking for men like me,

who were four, 30 to 40 to 50 year olds.

And when you look at the brand, it's
very masculine on purpose, right?

I purposely went that
direction and it's a mistake.

A lot of people make, right.

Is a lot of people, they try when they
want to create a brand, they try to go

too broad and they think I want to please
everybody, but then it does the opposite.

It doesn't help you stand out.

And so we purposely niche down,
got really specific with the brand.

And as a result, really stood out and
now, believe it or not, 30, 30 to 35

percent of our customers are women.

It's gone full circle.

That's interesting.

That's it.

Is it, do you think it's due to the
marketing you're doing or just the

scale, just due to the skill and
the awareness you have or husbands

recommending it to their wives
or partners or the, there you go.

What why do you think that's happening?

I think this is a, this is certainly a
bigger problem than it's talked about.

Like when I talked about the numbers
earlier you've got 71 percent of

households are mouth breathing.

That's a lot of people right now
who are mouth breathing at night.

And a lot of those people don't know
that it's literally that simple.

It's just because of their mouth
breathing and they just need to keep

their mouth shut and breathe through
their nose like our body intended.

And because we've done such a great job
with the brand and it's so visible, right?

It's so polarizing and so many people
out there use it, have seen it.

How can you not pay
attention to it, right?

So I think a lot of women that
are seeing this and going, huh,

this is really interesting.

I actually have this problem.

And there's certainly quite a few
women who, especially as we get

older, regardless if you're male
or female, the muscles in your chin

atrophy, and then chin falls down when
you relax and you're subconscious.

So you're unconscious.

And so even for women taping
their mouth is a great option too.

So I think they see it and
see how well it works for men.

And as a result, we actually, we did come
out with a female version that is pink.

So we've got our black version for men and
then we've got a pink version for women.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Now I want to rewind to a point you made,
which is like in, in the markets at the

time there was one product, one brand
that was not really doing branding well

for listeners who are in other verticals.

What should they be aware of from a,
if we're to take an internal brand

audit as to what not to do, how do
you know you're not building a brand?

Because sometimes we're so stuck into
what we're doing that we realize we,

we're not, we don't even know what
we're not, what we're not doing.

Yeah.

You don't know what you don't know.

So

I think I touched on a little bit of
earlier where when you're building a

brand, you have to build something that
stands out and gets people's attention.

Number one, right?

Because in this day and age, that I built
my company was I knew that we needed to

own our media because the central core way
we were going to market was through meta

was through Instagram and Facebook ads.

That was going to be one
of my largest spends.

own So how is I going to differentiate?

So for any company out there, how are
you going to, if you're going to be

an e commerce brand and sell online,
which is what most people have to

do to start, it's very rare that you
could start and then get into retail.

So how are you going to stand
out and get people's attention?

On Meta right on Facebook and
Instagram and you got to have a great

brand, got to have great marketing.

You can't just rely on
a great product, right?

Nobody's going to find out about a great
product if you can't market very well.

So does it stand out?

Is it polarizing?

And so you have to be willing
to take the risk of building

a brand that is polarizing.

People are either going to love it
or they're going to hate it and you

got to be willing to take the risk.

And you got to realize who your
target demographic is and you got

to go after that target demographic.

And part of the two is, I think there's
a, there's an art to it too, that

some people just don't have, some
people have it, some people don't.

And there's some people who started a
business and they might have a great

idea, but they just don't have a mind
for actually building a brand around

it and they don't know how to sell it.

They don't know how to market
it because you just don't have

the creative brain for that.

And, but I think that's something that we.

We have, we've got both the
ability to create this great brand

and then also market it and sell
it the way they needed to be.

And also I think there's a good
amount of luck in that too.

Yeah.

And also timing.

thing at the right time,
did the right things.

Okay.

So yeah, one 900 K that
was just three years ago.

What did you put into the business to, to
get the 900 K and how much time did you

spend on actually building out the brand?

I really like the almost
triple fold effect of the name.

So you talked about your kids coming
into the bedroom and saying, Hey,

daddy, you look like a hostage.

Bang, it's literally hostage
tape, because it's hostage.

And then you have the fact that when you
scroll through Facebook and hostage tape,

it just freaks people, certain people out.

It's polarizing, as you said.

So when, how much time
did you spend on there?

How much did you invest?

What was the concept?

What was the team like, and how'd
you, what's that first year?

Just break that down for us, please.

Yeah so I probably put in upwards of
700k into the business to start with.

Certainly quite a lot of money
to start it, to bootstrap it.

I don't have any investors.

Everything I've done has
always been bootstrapped.

So put that amount of money into it.

And I knew early on that I wasn't
going to hire any agencies.

I wasn't going to hire an agency
to do any sort of, of Facebook ads.

I wasn't going to hire an agency
to make content or do anything

because I knew that if this was
going to be successful, I needed to

understand the biggest needle movers.

And I was going to learn it myself.

And so the first year was me,
my business partner, who is Ben.

He does all of our creative.

He's the genius behind
the actual branding of it.

So the execution of taking hostage
tape and then creating this

brilliant brand was him, was Ben.

I came to him and I said hostage
tape and he was like, I love it.

So then he took it and then
he was the artist and painted

this brilliant brand around it.

And then we had a, I
hired a head of support.

When you're a software guy, you
understand the value of support and

having somebody who can actually help
people because you're always going

to have issues with orders and wrong
addresses and all that kind of stuff.

For that first year, it was just three
of us, and I spent, even prior to when

we shipped the first order, there was
six months of figuring out the tape,

actually formulating the right amount
of adhesive on the tape, the right,

Texture, the size, the shape, all of it.

So it took a, enough time to figure
out the product in itself that we

knew that was what we were going to
mass produce and start shipping that.

And then we shipped that
March of two years ago.

And then for the next six, eight
months after that, I spent all

my time dialing in Facebook.

And so I ran my Facebook account.

I'd never done Facebook ads before.

Okay.

Okay.

And I would challenge any founder,
any entrepreneur out there that if

you're going to be relying on Facebook
ads, learn it, go learn how to do it.

There's plenty of YouTube accounts
out there now who do a great job

teaching you how to get started doing
Facebook, but go out and learn how to do

How did you learn it?

Yeah, I learned so Ben Heath has a
great, in fact, he's based in the UK.

He has a great YouTube channel
where he talks about, he teaches

people how to do Facebook ads.

So I got started learning from him.

And his videos and then I was
always in tinkering, doing ads,

building, and then just iterating.

And now certainly it probably
helps with my background as

a, as an athlete and a coach.

I'm very driven in the sense of
I'm going to, I'm going to show up

every day and I'm going to keep.

And then I'm going to learn from
everything that's happening,

and then I'm going to adjust
and adapt and keep working.

So there's certainly a persistence and
determination that a guy like me has,

that maybe some people don't, but I
think if you're an entrepreneur, you

always have that bit of grit in you.

So I just kept doing
it over and over again.

And what's funny is it actually
took, it took us probably nine

months to find the best ad type.

So for that whole first year,
we didn't use any video.

It was all static ads.

We had trouble finding a video
format that actually worked.

That resonated because it was like how
do you have a video ad about Maltaid?

Like back then we didn't know.

And so the best things that worked
were static, like using testimonials

on images and things like that.

And then we started doing podcasts
and then finally we did a podcast

and we took clips from the podcast
and that was what then took

you interview, were you
the guest on the podcast?

Were you on it?

Yeah, I actually, so I was on the podcast.

And the clip that I actually
went, took off was of the, one

of the hosts of the podcast.

So we took that and then we mashed it
up into this 30 second bit where he was

talking about how he used to use 3M tape.

And then he started using hostage
tape and why it's so much better.

And so then it was at that point,
we realized okay, that's it.

I need to get on more podcasts.

And so then I started just to get, reach
out to more guys who had seen me on this

podcast and I was making more trips, more
recordings, taking those, we were mashing

them up and then using clips, either
me or of the host and running those.

And then that allowed us
then to start scaling.

And I got the.

Our ads spend up to a million
dollars a month at one point.

Last year all from those
style of video ads.

So and Anybody listening like when
you're trying to get really good at

Facebook ads when I say Facebook I
mean meta both Instagram and Facebook

when you're trying to get really good
at meta ads simply It could just be

creative If you've got a great piece
of creative, that is almost half the

battle, if not most of the battle.

Because if people aren't clicking
through, then you're not going

to move the needle at all.

But if you can get people to actually
click through, then you get them

onto your landing page, alright now
you've got something to work with.

And then you can put a great offer
on there, tell a great story on

that landing page, and then you
can start to convert people.

You mentioned earlier about attention,
differentiation and polarization.

What first principles do you need
to just have in mind, like intrinsic

as a foundation to, towards really
amping up your creatives and Facebook.

This is to, to every listener, in,
get a wind of this right now.

I think you have to look
at, you have to evaluate.

All the inventory that's available,
meaning you have to look and go, okay,

there's a video piece of inventory.

There's a static piece of inventory.

There's a carousel piece of inventory.

There's all sorts of different
ad types that Meta has.

And so you have to come up with
variations of each, and then you have

to be willing to iterate and test.

On those and keep creating variations.

Just because one failed doesn't mean
the business isn't going to work.

It just means maybe you haven't found the
right formula for that particular ad yet.

And you got to keep trying,
you got to keep iterating.

And sometimes you just got to throw
crap at the wall and see what sticks.

My point being, there's a bunch of
different inventory, and different people

buy from different types of creative.

Meaning this, not everybody buys from a
video ad, not everybody buys from a static

ad, not everybody buys from a carousel ad.

But there's pockets of people
that buy, will buy only from one.

And so when you can create
variations of, You're creative

and be willing to test and iterate

How many impressions or how much reach
would does an ad need to get to in

order for you to say, okay I've tested
and this is statistically, significant.

I like to look at a thousand

Okay.

True.

that we've traditionally used.

So the testing framework that, that we
did very early on was, We would actually

take a blank ad like I'd use a black
square and I would put a headline on

there And I would use chat GPT to come
up with 10 different headlines Okay

variations of headlines with certain
keywords that I thought were important

and then I would run a Black square
with the headline and then maybe an

arrow pointing down to and then our logo

With the intent of I just want to see is
this driving any action and it doesn't

need to be conversion at the fallacy
that a lot of people get into is they

think, Oh if I'm testing, it's always
got to be a conversion at it doesn't

if you're testing just pieces, right?

If you're testing an entire
thing then, yes, you need to

test for that particular action.

You're trying to drive, but if
you're deconstructing pieces of

it, like your headline, your hook.

Descriptions, different things like that.

Now you're just testing human psychology.

You could just do an awareness ad.

Doesn't cost very much money.

And, as long as you're getting
up to a thousand impressions.

of a very simple hook on a black
square with your logo on it.

And alright, how many,
what's my click through rate?

And that's a super simple way to
test just hooks, headlines, right?

And then you'll know, oh wow, okay
These headlines, these hooks, they're

getting a 5 percent click through rate.

These are getting a sub 1
percent click through rate.

Then it's obvious, then you
know, and you can start to

move in a different direction.

That's actually a really super cheap,
easy way for anybody To get started

and to truly start figuring out what
hooks, headlines to drive the needle,

and then you can marry those together.

And then you can take winners of hooks
and headlines and different things,

and then start putting them together.

And then you get these amazing ads
that do all the things you want to do.

And then really get people to click
through and a qualified too, right?

Because you're crafting copy, you're
crafting pieces that are, Related

to what you're trying to sell.

Not just click baby.

where should where should listeners
pay the most attention to in,

in the format of a Facebook ad?

Is it the ad description, the image?

And I know you're going
to say it's all spread.

It all comes together, but when you
talk about the headline, not many people

I brought in this show have spoken to
testing the headline in the detail.

You've essentially blurred everything
in the background and the focus

really is on that headline.

So where should people focus on really?

Yeah.

The creative, the visual, if you
had to throw everything out and

pick one thing, what visual piece
of creative are you showing?

Whether it's an image or it's a video that
needs to be the most interesting thing.

On the ad because that's essentially
like most people are looking

at stuff with the sound off.

They're laying in bed they're not hearing
anything They're not necessarily reading

a ton, but something visually catches
their attention and emotionally pulls

them in So I would say that then Once
you get the click through like i've got

a i've got a video right now I've never
seen one like that I've been running

ads now for two years and I've never
seen a piece of creative for me that's

gotten this big of a click through.

We're getting almost 15 to 20
percent click through rate with

this video of my social media guy.

He's in bed and it's a POV video where
he puts the tape on and then he goes

to bed and then he wakes up on the
beach and he's what just happened?

And that video is getting like 15
to 20 percent click through rate.

I've never seen that before.

I've never had it.

Most of our stuff is, one,
two, three, five percent.

That's pretty normal.

And, but that, there's nothing to
it other than there's something

visually appealing that's connecting

it high production?

Is it iPhone camera?

I think.

Doesn't have to be high production,
and that's the other thing.

You don't need to hire a production
company and pay 50 grand for a

shoot to have something that works.

Especially now, we're used to
looking at reels, shorts, TikTok

videos, things that are authentic.

Things that resonate in our
brain and don't feel sales y.

Like I'm looking at some highly, there's
a place for a highly produced studio

shoot, but doesn't need to be on your ad.

And this one his fiance literally had
his iPhone and filmed him and there's

no production value to it at all.

Just.

Just an iPhone.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Do you still run your ads?

Yeah, I do.

So I've got my head of growth Connor.

He's like my co pilot So he's the one
flipping all the knobs Doing putting

everything in and then I am telling him.

Alright, this is what I want.

Let's do this.

Let's do that Let's adjust this here.

Let's consolidate this.

Let's dump this So I'm
still running that ship.

so for people who want to hire a corner,
how would you, how did you hire a corner

I think I

that for people who want to hire a
corner, like your sidekick how would you

suggest they, how did you hire a corner?

How did you find out what
did you put out there to

Yeah, what's funny So I've got a team
of about 25 guys right now Most of mine

they all came from my original email guy
that I hired and he just cold DM'd me

because he was a fan of the first podcast
I was on And this was very early in

the journey, so it caught my attention.

And all the guys I hired were
from this copywriting group.

That he was, it was like this copywriting
mastermind group that he was a part of.

So everybody that I ended up hiring were
all different forms of like copywriters.

So what I would say is

find groups of people, whether it's a
mastermind that you want to be part of.

There's tons of masterminds out
there, but find other groups

of people similar to you.

And then those are the places where you
can start to find people who might be

great fits for what you're trying to do.

Or they know somebody.

That would be a great fit.

That's what I would

culture?

Are you building it remotely,
remote working, or does everybody

need to come to the office?

Yeah, we're completely remote.

I've got, so I'm in Minnesota.

I've got my partner, my business
partner is in Portland, Oregon.

My head of growth is in North Carolina.

My social is in Florida.

All over the place.

And what I try to do is, I
try to give people autonomy.

I like to not micromanage people too much,
but at the end of the day, I also know

that they're going to follow my lead.

So I need me, I need to be the
one setting the expectations

of the tone of everything.

I need to be the example.

And I'm also somebody who I've
done every role in the company.

And so there's a level of trust
and respect in my company because

everybody knows that I'm there.

I'm there.

I've literally done every job
and I know how to do every job.

So if I'm stepping in and I'm giving
direction on something, it's not

just because I'm the boss and I'm
the one that writes all the checks.

It's Alex actually knows how to do support
because he's done it and he used to do it.

Or Alex ran all the ads or so

a level of respect and just I've
done all of it that I think has, it

helps set the tone of the culture.

And when I hire people too, I'm
hiring a certain kind of person.

I'm not just hiring anybody.

I'm hiring people that I think
fit the culture that I want.

And I'm a very optimistic person, and so I
try to bring in very optimistic hustlers.

Guys that I know, they're
gonna hustle, they're gonna

work, they're also coachable.

So if I tell them,

and I give them feedback, and I'm coaching
them, they're very receptive to it.

And they have an optimistic way of seeing
things rather than being very pessimistic

or complaining or negative about things.

Cause once you bring in, once you've
got that one person, that one, one toxic

person, it, it brings everybody down.

It's a cancer

And so I think for the first handful
of hires that anybody is bringing on

into the company, you've got to be very
selective about who those people are.

Cause that sets the tone for
the whole company for years.

super, super interesting that's a
small leadership masterclass right

there where you've done the work on
yourself, you have a persona and you're

attracting similarly minded, people
to build, around question for you.

Would you attribute the success of
hostage tape to Facebook ads only?

No, I attribute.

The success of hostage safe to

well, number one, we've created
an amazing brand, right?

Because remember at the end of the
day You can have a great product,

but nobody's going to buy it if they
don't know anything about it, or if

they don't think it's a cool brand.

And so I think we've done an
amazing job creating this brand

that everybody looks at and thinks,
wow, that's a really cool brand.

Or that's, those guys are
ballsy for doing that.

Even the, I was DMing with the
Liquid Death founder and even

he gave us a compliment, right?

The guy that I learned this from, even he
said, He goes, Hey man, I love the brand.

You've got just the right amount
of controversy there that starts

a conversation with people,
which is exactly what we wanted.

And so I think the brand and then paired
with that, the art, the ability to

then leverage and master Facebook ads.

Yes.

There wouldn't have been any other
way that we could have marketed this.

To be able to scale as fast as we
did, unless we'd gotten into retail,

but even then, like getting into
retail is never a guarantee success.

Cause you still have to drive to it.

People awareness to even know what your
product is, to walk into target and even

buy it to begin with absolutely need to
get a heads up from Mike Ciceraro, to

who's talking about your brand is amazing.

Really good stuff.

that was cool.

That was neat to have a little DM back
and forth with him cause I'm a HU I have

huge amount of respect for what he did.

And again, he I learned
it by watching him.

Okay.

And then I know you mentioned
about like the Joe Rogan, do you

sponsor the Joe Rogan podcast?

Yes.

Yep.

So Joe was actually a user.

He was a hostage abuser for a long time.

I don't know.

I've actually never, I had a
conversation with him about it,

but I imagine either he saw it on
social or there's a ton of comedians

around him in his group that use us.

Tom Segura was a, he's been a user
of hostage tapes at the beginning

and Tom and Joe are really close.

So it wouldn't surprise me if maybe Joe
learned about it from Tom, or maybe he

learned about it from just some of the
other guys that are in the, in that

circle, but either way, he was a user.

And when I found out he was,
we actually reached out to.

His team and initially the team so if
you ever try to sponsor with Joe It

has to go through his team first and
then Joe is the one who approves it and

you know It's not like other sponsors
where other Podcasts or shows where

they might just take anybody like if
you can pay the money, you're good

But with Joe doesn't work that way.

He has to approve it and say
yep I want to do this or not.

So it has to be Joe approved it's
got to get through Joe's first line

of defense with which is Joe's team.

And so it initially got
shot down by Joe's team.

So it didn't get through to Joe.

And I'm like, this doesn't make any sense.

Like Joe's a user.

Why would Joe not want us
to be a sponsor of the pod?

And then a few weeks
later, he's on an episode.

And one of the guests are
talking about mouth taping.

And Joe goes, Oh, do you use hostage tape?

And I was like, there it is.

So then we reached back out.

We're like, Joe just mentions us on air.

So then they went to Joe and
Joe's Oh yeah, of course.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

They can sponsor the pod, of course.

And then he did a read.

And now he's we have a read That
if you're listening to Joe, you'll

probably have heard the hotstape read.

and that's why I was so excited
to speak to me and that's

success, brilliant success.

Do you mind speaking about the
unit economics there, what you

pay and, is there a unique code
there and what you get from it,

Yeah.

So you're, when you do the sponsorship
there, you're obviously going through

Spotify right through the Spotify team.

And so they have a CPM for Joe, you
might pay, I don't know, maybe it's

like a 40 CPM or whatever it is.

And then really it comes down to
how much, how many impressions

are you going to pay for it?

And so with Joe.

They'll start you off small.

What I really respect about
Spotify and the team is they're

very honest and upfront and saying
look, let's just start small.

Let's see if this is going to work because
we realize this is a big commitment.

Because look, if you're going
to go in with Joe, you're

probably spending a hundred K.

For a three month trial period, right?

That's around what you're going to spend.

Okay, minimum of 100k
for a three month period.

And they'll start using,
that's low, right?

A certain amount of low
impressions that you're getting.

You might get, one to,
a one to two frequency.

And there's a lot of work that's
being done right now, especially

in the area of supervised
marketing for households on that.

They were great on.

All right, let's start there
and then we'll stir stuff up and

progress on how things are going.

And yeah, I can't speak enough
great things about, Joe and his

team and the Spotify team and it's
great affinity to have draw a user.

He's middle aged.

He's your target market.

You are sponsoring the UFC now.

It's just, it's a, it's full circle.

It's like a tri, yeah.

It's just full circle.

Really?

It's it connects.

It's

It's ice for us.

Those are like two temples, right?

If you want to talk about like a
foundation for our marketing Having

Joe Rogan and then having UFC, it
doesn't get any better than that, right?

Especially when I do, so before I
even went in and signed these deals,

I used a post purchase survey.

so I wanted to poll the audience
and see, okay, how many of

my customers are UFC fans?

And so before I signed that deal,
because that's a big deal, a lot of

money, and I did the post purchase
survey, and 74 percent of our customers

were UFC fans, and so I knew, okay.

This is gonna be a win.

This one makes sense.

And I didn't even need to add Joe or
do anything with a post purchase survey

because people were already naming Joe
Rogan as the second biggest reason as

to why they were buying hostage tape.

And we weren't even a
sponsor of Joe at the time.

So for some reason, people were
just associating us and Joe Rogan.

And then they were buying, it was strange.

And so I'm like, this is going to be
like throwing gasoline on the fire then.

So then once we actually added Joe,
right now, Joe is the number one reason.

People say they buy Haas's tape is
because Joe Rogan and then a short second

one after that is actually, we've got a
partnership with a guy named Andy Elliott,

who's the fastest sales trainer, fastest
growing sales trainer in the world.

That's interesting.

How's that panned out?

Yes,

The Andy Elliott.

So the, so what I love about Andy is,
If you know who Andy Elliott is, he's

the guy who, he's bald, ripped, and
he went viral for the if you don't

have a six pack you're fired guy.

And so there's a lot of polarity
with Andy that people either

love him or they hate him.

But the thing about Andy is when you
actually meet him and you go through

his training or You hear him talk, you
actually realize, oh wow, this guy really

truly knows what he's talking about
and he's truly authentic with who he

is and what he's trying to accomplish.

While yes, you might see some polarizing
videos of him that get your attention,

but that's what they're designed to do.

They're designed to get your
attention, to draw you in, and then

when you actually start watching
him more, you realize, Oh, wow.

There's a lot of great stuff here
that I can learn and just helps

motivate you and the thing that's
great about Andy is our product fits

just perfectly into his day to day.

And so what I would tell anybody out
there, when you're finding people

to work with influencers like that,
you got to find people who are

great at content in this day and
age where everything is on social.

So Andy is so good at making content.

I don't even really need to do anything.

He has the product, they use
it, the whole team uses it, and

they're making content daily.

He has his editors, his filmers, and
then he's putting up, he'll, he puts

a reel a day up and collabs with us.

So we have, if you go to our Instagram,
you'll see there's a video involving

Andy and his team, every other four or
five reels, and they're getting anywhere

from 200, 000 views to a million views.

So the amount of awareness that he's
helping create is just phenomenal.

And then he has all these in
person events that he does at

his headquarters in Scottsdale.

And my guys were just
at that this last week.

And the cool thing is there'll be
four or five hundred people that

show up to his in person events.

Where he'll do a workout one day and
then the next day he'll do these in

person sales trainings with people.

And my team will be there and every
month they just, it just keeps getting

better and better with everybody there
knowing who we are, a warmer and warmer

audience, more people using Hans's
tape, more people loving it, talking

about how it's changing their lives.

And you got a guy like Andy who's
literally authentic about who he is

and the brand and how it helps them.

It's a win.

What about usage rights?

So with all of this content
collaborations you're having with

people like Andy, I'm not sure you
have, I'm not sure if you're, you have

anything similar with Rogan, obviously
you're sponsoring through Spotify.

Do you have, do you have usage
rights for ads and are you

plugging it into your ad system?

Yeah.

So anytime you go into those agreements,
you've got to be very clear about

what you want to be able to do.

You got to define that
upfront with people.

And every relationship that I get
into, I always make it very clear

that one of the most important things.

That I'm interested in is being able to
take content and run it in paid media.

Every relationship that I have,
if I can't run paid media, then

I can't get the best ROI from it.

Now, Joe is a different.

Beast.

Now, Joe doesn't let you do, let you
run any of his content or use any of it.

So any Joe Rogan content you see
that's associated with the brand, it's

either doing it illegally or he's a
part of the brand, like on it, right?

He's a part owner of on it and you'll
see Joe Rogan and on it content, but

anything else it's not allowed because
Joe and his team don't allow that.

But it's Joe yes, I would
love to be able to do it.

But just the fact that I
have Joe to begin with is.

Like pretty great now somebody Andy we
went into that relationship and we're

very clear about okay You've got all
this content that you're gonna make

and I'm gonna want to use it in ads
This is how I'm gonna use it and so

forth and what's great about it I'm
my relationship with Andy is he said

look whatever I make you can use man,
whatever you want to do So he's, he and

I have a very open relationship of how
we use content and how we promote and

market, but not everybody's like that.

That's why you just got to be very clear
upfront and set those expectations up.

And so there's no surprises and you
have usage rights because there's some

creators who I've had some who they'll
want a, like a podcast sponsorship and

then I'll say, okay, but let's be clear.

I want to run.

Some of these clips in paid media too.

And they'll say, oh if you want
that, then it's going to cost extra.

And everybody's just different, but
got to have those conversations early.

And get them out of the

Make sense.

And what's your beyond Andy
what's your influencer program?

Like at the minute
depends on who they are.

But,

we're we don't do any sort of like
affiliate play stuff with influencers.

We just either, we either pay like a per
episode or a CPM or a monthly amount.

Everybody's a little bit different.

But most of those guys
don't want affiliate.

In fact, most, I would argue Most creators
don't want affiliate, they want consistent

monthly income, is what they want.

And so if you can put together something
where you pay somebody a grand a month,

five grand a month, whoever it is,
over a period of a few months or six

months or a year or whatever, that's
what they're going to want anyways.

They want consistent revenue,
consistent money coming in.

And so that's one way to do it,
and that's how we traditionally

do a lot of our higher level.

We've got another one.

We just brought Pete Holmes on.

So Pete Holmes is the, he's
a really well known comedian.

He just had a special come out on Netflix.

Absolutely hilarious.

And he's really famous for doing all
those Batman parody videos where he

plays Batman and does funny bits,
but he he discovered Hans's tape.

Absolutely changed how he and his wife
sleep together, how he sleeps, and he's

got a podcast where he interviews all
these big time actors like he had David

Duchovny on the other day, X Files, and
he's talking about hostage tape and we

just pay him a per episode amount that
we agree on but what's cool is when you

find influencers who are truly authentic,
that's what, that's the other thing

I would say is try to stay away from
influencers who aren't It's not authentic

about the brand because it comes off.

People are way smarter.

People have a bullshit meter way more
than you realize that they're going

to listen to somebody on a podcast and
go, now they just got paid to say that.

But if you get a guy or a woman who truly
loves the product, it's going to come out

in their read and how they talk about it.

And those are the ones that you
want to double down on and get

into bed with is Those people who
truly love the product and use it.

So other than podcasts like this
is obviously an e commerce podcast.

Are you going to, to other like
health and wellness podcasts to

speak to the importance of sleep?

Yeah, I speak on all sorts
of different podcasts.

Health, family, because my
business has all these different

interesting angles, right?

Where we have this fascinating story of
growth, of how I grew it from literally

zero to eight figures in two years.

And then how I scaled
using Facebook ads, right?

This e commerce, rocket ship marvel.

And then there's the
family side of it, right?

Of, of the journey I went through, of
how I went through divorce, and now

we're back together and all of that.

And yeah, there's this whole
angle too of understanding nose

breathing and mouth breathing
that most people don't understand.

And so I'll go on health podcasts and
talk about that too, because it's becoming

more and more people are becoming aware
of this and maybe it's because of us.

Maybe it's not.

I'd like to believe we're partially
responsible for more awareness of why

it's important that we should be breathing
through our nose and not our mouth.

And and I can

why not?

Let's.

I won't bore

talk about sleep.

I'm very much into sleep.

I try and get eight, eight hours of sleep.

I, it could be 10 hours time
in bed, eight hours in sleep.

I have a whoop, as you
could see here a whoop band.

So yeah, why sleep?

And the interesting thing
is I also came across a.

The podcast is a competitor of yours.

He came on the podcast,
was talking about sleep.

It was quite educated.

And that's why I actually asked this
question as to whether you're into

whether you go to other podcasts.

So yeah, tell us about the importance
of sleep one and a nose versus mouth

breathing, because I've actually been
in a self discovery because I go off for

runs and I realized the more I breathe
through my mouth the faster I tire.

I just get exhausted fairly quickly.

And I tell my kids, my sons do not breathe
in your mouth, unless you absolutely

have to breathe through your nose to
control your heart rates and all that.

So I'd really love to hear,
the science and your thoughts

Yeah, so okay, I'll try to keep it

So

y.

Sleep's all about recovery.

When you go to bed, your brain is, it's
flushing out all these toxins and all this

stuff in your brain that then you recover
and then get ready for the next day.

So there's all these things happening
in your brain and then in your body.

So there, here's four, four points
that I like to talk about a lot.

That are easy to understand,
and are some of the bigger ones.

So number one is there's this relationship
of CO2 to oxygen that we have.

When we breathe through our
nose, believe it or not, you're

getting more oxygen in your body.

It sounds counterintuitive,
because you might be thinking but

I can breathe more in my mouth.

I can get more air in.

That doesn't make sense, Alex.

But it comes down to this
concept of the Bohr effect.

Okay, and the Bohr effect was
published early 1900s, a long time ago.

And what this says is that the
more CO2 we have in our body, the

more our body is able to use oxygen

because there's a one for one
exchange of CO2 and oxygen.

So when oxygen comes in, CO2 goes out.

Oxygen comes in, CO2 goes out, right?

When we breathe through our
mouth, we're exhaling more CO2.

We're almost hyperventilating, right?

And so now we have a lower
amount of CO2 in our body.

So all that oxygen we're pulling
into our body can't get used.

Because there's not enough
CO2 to exchange and use.

And breathing through our nose
slows that down, slows down the

amount we're exhaling, thereby
keeping more CO2 in our body.

So now we're able to get more oxygenated.

It's very counterintuitive.

And so like when you're running, really
focusing on keeping your mouth shut, what

happens is you'll have the sensation of
air hunger, where you feel like you need

to open your mouth, but it's an illusion.

Your brain is tricking you.

But the more CO2 you have in your body,
the more air hunger your body feels.

You have to just fight that urge to open
your mouth and just keep your mouth shut.

Especially when you run.

What I try to do is I
try to have a pattern of

with my steps

two, two in one out.

that helps keep me in rhythm.

So then you don't like just go.

Okay.

So now number two is nitric oxide.

So when you breathe through your nose,
And it passes through your sinuses, you

trigger the release of nitric oxide.

Nitric oxide is a vasodilator
that helps open up the vessels

and helps get the blood moving.

And when that happens then your anxiety
drops, calms you down, and you're getting

oxygen in more parts of your body.

Thirdly is our nose is a filter
just like how you wouldn't drink

a glass of dirty water, your body
wouldn't like that very much.

Our nose is filtering all
the crap out of the air.

It's also warming and humidifying
the air before it gets to the lungs.

Because our lungs like warm, humid air.

That's the most optimal state for the
lungs to be able to pull oxygen in.

And when we pull it through our mouth,
it's cold, it's dry, it's dirty.

And it's not an optimal, in an
optimal state for the lungs.

And then, lastly, believe it or not,
is nose breathing protects our teeth.

So we have saliva in our mouth,
and there's good bacteria in the

saliva that protects the enamel.

So when we mouth breathe, all the enamel,
all the saliva, Evaporates, right?

Dries out.

Bad bacteria forms.

Eats away at the enamel.

And then also you have really bad breath.

I was a chronic mouth
breather my whole life.

And as a young kid, my dentist used
to, he couldn't understand why I had

huge pitting in the back larger teeth.

Like he thought there was,
he thought I was bulimic.

Like he couldn't
understand why I had that.

And it was because I was mouth breathing,
my whole life and it ruined my teeth.

So believe it or not, keeping your
mouth shut will help reduce bad

breath and protect your teeth.

super, super interesting.

What about no strips?

What's the case for no strips?

Alex Hormozy has quite.

Yeah.

Okay.

Obviously you're seeing this thing here.

So one of the biggest questions that
we always get is what about my nose?

I've got a deviated septum.

I have trouble breathing out of it.

And so I said, okay how do we add
value to what we're already doing,

which is encouraging nasal breathing?

Yeah.

And increase AOV, it's all right let's
take a breathe right and let's make

it look cool because breathe right is
certainly they created the category

and they got popular 20 years ago,
but they just don't look very good.

So I said, all right, let's
take that and make it look sexy

again and we change the shape.

Change the color and now make it really
easy for people to be able to add on

no strips when they buy mouth tape
with us and So and the funny thing too

is that yes There's people who will
wear no strips and mouth tape when

they sleep some people who don't More
people are now wearing the no strip

when they run and they're wearing mouth
tape when they run, too They work out.

I for me.

I can't go do a workout without
wearing a no strip At all.

If I do, I can't get a
good workout in because I

so what does it do?

I've never tried to a no strip before.

Yeah so what's in the, believe it or
not, this isn't just a piece of tape.

That's what most people think.

Most people that have never
seen one before, they're like,

This is just a piece of tape.

It doesn't make sense.

But there's actually,
there's plastic in the strip.

And so what it does is it flares
open the nostrils, opens them up.

So then you can actually breathe.

Because most of us that have
smaller noses the nostrils, and

right here, they're collapsed.

Like I've got a, just a small little nose.

And so I don't have the biggest
nostrils and the biggest airways here.

So the plastic here.

It flares and opens that up.

So now a good thing to do is you
could just take your fingers and just

open up your nostrils like this and
get an idea of what that feels like.

And that's what a hostage
nose strip will do.

blood oxidase oxidation going on with
that, with more air coming through

in and out with more CO2 out more

Yeah, absolutely.

Okay.

Makes sense.

So you get more of your workouts.

Okay.

What about breath work?

This is completely off the of what
are your thoughts on breath work?

I think breath works great.

In fact, I think the first
time I was introduced to nose

breathing was doing yoga.

And I thought it was crazy.

I thought this is stupid.

Like most of us, Westerners, most
of us Americans, we think, ah,

this is woo, this is dumb, right?

Because we're just not brought
up right now to understand it.

And but I think it's great
because if you're doing breathwork

again, it goes back to the
fundamentals we talked about of.

You breathe through your nose,
passing through your sinuses.

It's creating nitric oxide,
vasodilating, and it's calming you down.

And then you're keeping a good
level of CO2 in your body.

So what you'll notice is when, if you
just sat there and you just slowly

breathe through your nose and you
do that for a minute or so, you'll

notice how much calmer you feel, how
much better you feel versus if you

just like puff through your mouth.

You'll feel lightheaded, right?

You won't feel good.

You'll feel disorientated, like foggy.

Absolutely.

makes a lot of sense.

Look, Alex, we can go on and on.

I'm sure the questions in my head,
I'll tell you, why didn't I ask

you after this conversation but
I think it was quite thorough.

So you're predominantly
subscription based business.

Cause I could see like you have
one month try that there's no.

There's a one month try, which 66, 6.

6.

Okay.

And then there's three months supply
and then there's a year supply.

What, what do customers typically
try out for a first time?

And are you, would you consider
hostage tip subscription business?

I don't actually.

Believe it or not, that's
not the most popular option.

I give people three options to pick from.

Most people will come into our
funnel either doing the one month

try or we Facebook ads that's
buy two get one month free.

Thank you.

So you're getting a 90 day supply, it's
a form of a BOGO and so most people are

coming in through one of those two offers.

And then if it's a one month try,
they're usually within seven days

coming back and then buying three
month supply, a six month supply,

subscribing, or a year supply.

And what I found out was, I think most
people are subscribed out right now.

And so I gave people the option to, yeah,
you can subscribe if you want to, because

this is a very predictable Product using
one strip a night, so you know, okay,

one pack is going to last me a month.

Great.

So you can easily do a subscription and
stay on track with it versus if you're

a shampoo subscription, you don't always
know like how long is that shampoo bottle

going to last, so it's harder to be on a
shampoo subscription than it is on this.

But, so I give people the option to come
back and you can subscribe or if you want

to buy in bulk, you can just buy in bulk.

Okay.

them the options.

I see your hostage tape now hostage.

Do you ever see yourself evolving
from hostage tape to hostage,

like a sleep company, what what's
the name of that first company?

yeah, in fact that's been the goal
the whole time was that the brand is a

sleep, essentially a sleep brand, right?

We are creating all of these little
products that help people sleep better in

a noninvasive way, in an inexpensive way.

And coincidentally, people have
started to use them for fitness, too.

Like just breathing better,
getting better workouts in.

But at the end of the day,
yes, we're a sleep company.

But we're also leaning and
going towards this idea of

don't let life hold you hostage.

Don't let fill in the
blank hold you hostage.

Don't be a hostage to life, right?

Don't let blank hold your family hostage.

Don't let blank hold your wife hostage.

Absolutely, I foresee the brand
evolving away from purely hostage

tape and becoming hostage, the

You mentioned you're
about to get into retail.

Or are you already in retail
or about to get into retail?

Oh,

We're about to, yeah, so
we're not in retail yet.

We're in the process of, Most likely
we're going to be in there's a Canadian

chain of grocery stores that most likely
like they, they really want us in.

And in fact, I've got a, another meeting
with them tomorrow where we'll be in,

there's 400 of them all across Canada.

So they want us in all of those.

And that'll happen before
the end of the year.

So that'll be our first step into retail.

Granted, it's not in the big box retail,
but it's a great first step because

getting into retail it's a complex dance.

And so this is a great way to get
our feet wet and start to learn it.

And then I also, I met
with Walmart yesterday too.

And so our goal is we're going to
get into Walmart retail for 2025.

And we're actually starting with going
on the Walmart marketplace first, and

then we're going to roll that into
then getting into Walmart retail.

So it's not official.

We're not officially going into.

Walmart retail just yet, but that's
my goal is to get us in for 2025 with

just how I'm positioning everything

with,

And then after that, Target will
follow I'm located in Minneapolis

where it's the headquarters of Target.

And so my goal was always to get into
Target, but Target's a little bit more

conservative when it comes to brands.

Then maybe Walmart is so our brand
is very polarizing and so we'll get

into Walmart And then when we get into
Walmart and we crush it then Target's

gonna come knocking and that'll give
us some leverage I think to be able

to get good placement and be able to
position the brand the way that we want

is a different set of
skills in comparison to DTC.

Are you on, speaking of marketplaces, are
you on any other marketplaces like Amazon?

Do you, okay.

so

Interesting.

strips are on Amazon The mouth tape is not
on Amazon, believe it or not, if, so we,

over the last three months, we had, we've
had 250, 000 searches for hostage state.

So there's demand.

The problem is Amazon actually banned
the sale of mouth tape on Amazon.

They did that last year, and so they're
not allowing us to sell our mouth tape.

But when you search for hostage tape,
you're going to see all of my copycats.

Obviously we have we're the biggest
mouth tape brand in the world.

It's not even close.

And so as a result, all the copycats
come out of the walls, right?

And they want to try to capture
a little bit of the success

that, that you've created.

So you can go to Amazon and you can
see all these copycats who've created

crappy versions of what we've done.

And, most of them are just
one dude in an apartment.

We're dealing with Amazon right now,
because they're not cracking down

on the policy that they've made.

Because they're not allowing
us to sell our mount tape, but

they're letting all of these little
cockroaches get through the cracks

is also confusing the market

it's frustrating.

Consumers are not going to
be getting that experience.

They, they expect, interesting.

Interesting.

You know what's, you know what's really
frustrating is we had, so we a few

weeks ago, your buybot can get hacked.

On Amazon.

I don't know how, but somebody
claimed that they were selling

hostage tape, no strips, and offered
a lower price, so then our buy box

got hijacked by a counterfeiter.

So then, people started buying what
they thought was hostage tape, and

they started getting these counterfeit
crappy versions of no strips.

And then they start writing
bad reviews about us.

And it's it's not even our product.

Somebody, somehow Amazon
allowed this to happen.

And they're not even getting our product.

That's also the.

sucks.

Did you kick them out?

Did you, yeah did Amazon, okay.

we got it resolved, but there's countless
reviews right in our Amazon account

claiming now this wasn't even, this
doesn't even look like hostage tapes cause

it's not, somebody hijacked the buy box.

huge problem on marketplaces.

Huge problem.

So hopefully we're going to get Walmart,
the Walmart marketplace, which is they're

trying to replicate and do exactly what,
Amazon's doing, which totally makes sense.

Cause when you have all of these
distribution, facilities around the

country, walmart should be doing this.

And so we're going to get started and
hopefully that's going to grow and do

really well and be able to, overtake
any sort of lost revenue that we were

not getting on Amazon until we resolve
that with them and then get it back.

And then and then that
should propel us into retail.

We'll get into retail and then
it'll completely change the game.

For us, by that point, like we're
going to be a billion dollar brand.

And once we get into retail,
that's the step that's going

to get us to be in that brand.

I'm very cognizant of your time.

You've been very generous with your time.

We have a lightning round.

I'm just going to ask you a few questions.

And then if you could use a single
set, single and single sentence to

answer the questions, that'd be great.

But before that, I want to
ask you one final question,

which is more down to mindset.

You said you put in 700 K.

You told your business puts
in 700 K into hostage tape.

Were you scared?

That's question one.

Question two is, are you what
are your thoughts around?

I wasn't scared because
I'm a big visualizer.

So I literally wake up every
morning and I visualize exactly

where we're going to be, what I'm
feeling, what the company looks like.

All of it, and so I trained my brain
to, to believe and to feel and to

just know that this is going to be
successful and it's going to work.

How'd you, where'd you
learn to train your brain?

I'd done it since I was an athlete.

So when I was an athlete, I used to,
before a game we play games on Saturdays

and the few days leading up to the
game, I would go through all the play

scripts and all the plays that we would
have for the game and I would play

the game in my head before the game.

So I would visualize every play, I would
see the defense, see the play, make the

throw, score the touchdown, all of it.

And that was something that
I don't, I didn't learn it

from somewhere, I just did it.

And then come to find out years
later that, oh, guess what?

All the top athletes in the world do this.

Kobe Bryant did it.

Michael Jordan did it.

Like, all these guys have been
doing this stuff for years.

And for some reason, I just
naturally was doing it too.

And I have adopted that into
my business and personal life.

Now too, and people think it's crazy,
but I'll tell you why it's not crazy.

Let me give you a real live example
that anybody can do that actually

makes you go, Oh, I get it.

So let's say you're going to go buy a car
and let's say you're going to buy A Jeep.

Okay, A Jeep Wrangler.

You go, you drive a Jeep
Wrangler and then you go home.

What do you see on the
road for the next week?

All are Jeep wranglers everywhere, right?

It's because your brain, the IRS
of your brain is now keyed into

that piece of information, and so
they were there the whole time.

Your brain just wasn't thinking about it.

So visualizing.

and manifesting and the law of
attraction is the exact same thing.

It's not woo, it's just a matter
of training your brain to focus on

the right details, the right things
that matter because then you see

all of those opportunities because
they've been there the whole time.

You just have to train your brain
to be open to it and to receive it.

when you train your brain, is, are you in
a meditative state or are you in silence?

Yeah, I typically, like right now I'll
do it in the sauna in the morning.

So I'll do a visualization session
when I'm just sitting in the sauna.

And I just closed my eyes.

But yeah, you have to, you have to get
into a state where when you're doing this

kind of a visualization you're feeling it.

You have to feel it.

You can't think, I wish this will happen.

You actually have to
believe I'm in this moment.

I'm feeling what it feels like to
be in that moment, to experience

what is happening when you're
there, when you've accomplished

what you're visualizing, right?

So you have to be in a place and a
state where you can actually experience

With incredible

right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's exactly, it's so detailed
to the point where I will, in my

visualization, I literally am so
detailed about actually feeling.

The door handle, when I open the car door
and I get out, and then I grab the handle

of the private jet that I'm walking up
and I feel how it jiggles, and so much

of that little detail that I'm feeling.

You get that detailed about how
that feels in those experiences.

deep stuff, Alex this is incredible.

This is this.

And then the other question
I had was more around.

Do you think about competition?

Because there's a lot, there
are lots of companies trying

to just meet two companies.

Yep.

I agree.

I don't.

I don't think about competition because,
one, you can't focus on too much.

You have to focus on what
you need to do, right?

And how you need to move forward.

If you it's a technique that I
learned back when I was a player.

If I'm focused too much on what,
I'm not focused on what the other

quarterback is doing, if I'm competing
to be the starting quarterback on a

team, if all I'm doing is focused on
what that other quarterback is doing

to try to win the job, then I'm lost.

I've lost the job because I'm
not focused on what I need to do

to win the job because you can
only control you and what you do.

You can't control what they're doing.

So if I'm focusing too much on
competitors, I'm not focused on us and

what we need to do and how we need to win.

And now the other part
of that is purposely.

It's gotten us to a point where
we're so far ahead of everybody.

We spent so much time, so much money
creating this brand that when you

have partnerships with the UFC, you're
the official sleep aid partner of

UFC, you're sponsors with Joe Rogan.

Those are such validating pieces.

Nobody can compete with that.

None of my competitors
will ever have that.

And we'll ever get to that level that it's
just not worth my time to think about it.

And we're just going
to keep plowing ahead.

And then we're going to be the
first mouth tape brand in retail.

And especially when that happens,
certainly I'm paving the way I'm

paving the way for other me twos,
try to get a little bit of revenue.

But the reality is none
of them are going to last.

None of them have, we'll have the
staying power and the money and the

capital to continue to invest into
it and build this brand because.

People are going to Google this, and
they're going to see Hotch's tape, and

they have all heard of us, and see UFC,
and they see all these other indicators.

Of, social proof that we're the best
decision for them than this other

company they've never heard of before.

All right, Alex, let's jump
into the rapid fire question.

Segments of the show ready.

When you are,

You got it.

are you a morning person?

What does your morning routine look like?

Yes.

I wake up at 5.

30.

I do sauna, stretching, red
light therapy, workout, run.

And I meditate and visualize

time does your day start?

Your work day, that is.

Okay.

What book are you currently
reading or listening to?

I'm reading the

Traction.

Okay, got it.

Name three people you looked up
to and have been instrumental to

your success and journey thus far.

One person is my dad.

Second person is my mom and a
third person would have to be

probably like Joe Montana as a kid.

He was my idol as a quarterback and he was
a huge driver and Who I would eventually

What's been your best mistake to date?

By that a setback that's given
you the biggest feedback.

Ooh spending a million
dollars on Facebook.

I

In one month.

Okay, alright, cool.

Would you ever sell your business?

don't want to, but my CFO likes to
remind me that if a company comes

to me and says, Alex, we want to buy
hostage state for, a billion dollars.

Then it's my fiduciary
responsibility to take it serious.

final question.

Who's been your most meaningful
business contact in the last five years?

boy.

I would say I'm going to say two.

Mark Bell.

Mark Bell is a legend in
the weightlifting community.

He's the host of the
Power Project podcast.

He's been huge.

He's been doing e
commerce for a long time.

And then secondly is Dan Fleischman.

Dan Fleischman has been
a huge connector for us.

On just all these different people
that you need to meet, relationships

you need to make and build.

Alex, it's you speak my language.

You've done terrifically well.

I'm so happy to see your success.

Wish you more success, particularly
when you build two to a billion

dollars as well as get into retail.

It's been a pleasure having you
on the 2X e commerce podcast.

It has been amazing being on the show.

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

And don't let bad sleep hold you hostage.